First of all i want to appologize for my english, i might make grammar/spelling mistakes. I`ve been thinking of a mmoRPG story for couple of months. Few days ago i presented my story to a sponsor that told me it`ll sponsor me with $20k-$30k for this game. Because i don`t have so much experience in game developing i want to ask you guis few questions: 1) Do you think it can be made such a game with $20k-30k ? 2) What should be the team format needed (how many c++ , how many 3D, etc) 3) Approximate minimum amount of time ? 4) And the best engine to start working on it ? thank you

Most MMO budgets choose to add 4-5 zeros to that number, so you might need to re-evaluate the scope.

MMOs are among the most expensive beasts possible to develop, test and roll-out, and the market doesn't give you any slack for low production values. If you're just starting out as a developer, I'd really advice you to develop some other project first (maybe an offline RPG?), before you start on your MMOG dream. There's just so many different elements involved, any one of which can totally ruin your project (front end, back-end, network, tools, back-end, billing, customer service, content updates, patching, balancing, etc). At least if you finish a 2D or 3D RPG, you'll have worked up the skills to competently handle SOME of those tasks.

Good luck,

Allan

Quote: Original post by HopTim
First of all i want to appologize for my english, i might make grammar/spelling mistakes.

I`ve been thinking of a mmoRPG story for couple of months. Few days ago i presented my story to a sponsor that told me it`ll sponsor me with $20k-$30k for this game.

Because i don`t have so much experience in game developing i want to ask you guis few questions:

1) Do you think it can be made such a game with $20k-30k ?
2) What should be the team format needed (how many c++ , how many 3D, etc)
3) Approximate minimum amount of time ?
4) And the best engine to start working on it ?

thank you

1) if everyone working on the game is only doing it as a hobby (i.e. making no money during development), then yes, possibly.

However as a commercial game, $20-$30k isn't very much, less than salary for a single junior programmer for a year (in western Europe/US averages).

Salaries are lower in eastern Europe and much of Asia, so development (and outsourcing) in those places is going to be cheaper, but still not cheap enough for a $30k budget IMO.

For an MMO, development cost is only a part of the overall cost - server/hosting and support costs should be taken into account too. I think your budget should include those costs for the first year at least.

On that budget, you would need additional funding from somewhere else (a publisher, friends & family, a bank, etc).

Also I'm assuming you would be using freelancers - renting office space, paying for fixed assets (PCs, desks, etc), paying local taxes (corporation tax, council rates, etc), etc would cost a lot more on top.


2) The team structure really depends on the scope and design of the game and the time you have to develop it. A text based MUD only needs one programmer and no artists.

A smaller scale 2D/isometric game, possibly with some amount of procedural world generation could be made with 2-3 artists and 2-3 programmers, assuming they were all highly skilled/competent.

For a large scale 3D game (say Oblivion), I'd say an absolute minimum of 4-5 programmers (all specialists in particular areas: networking, AI, graphics, etc), and ~10+ artists. That's assuming you'll be using middleware for some of your technology (advisable for a startup) and all of the team were highly skilled/competent.


3) As above, it depends on the scope of the game design and the team structure. The average not-online commercial game takes an average of 12-24 months with a team of 50-100 people. Setting up a new team and learning new technology will take longer.


4) The prices for most commercial engines start at ~$50k, and some weigh in at close to ~$1m!, so you'd be looking at cheap or even free (e.g. open source) engines. Of the cheap ones, Torque would be a good start, though I'm not sure if it has a networking component. An engine that's being developed commercially (such as Torque) is more likely to have good technical support (very important!), and is less likely to disappear halfway through your development cycle (a real problem with some open source, where the developers get bored or have other commitments with their salaried work so stop working on the project).

Wow, i`m wordless .
so you`re saying i should not start making something because i won`t be able to finish because of low funds :( . i`m a little dissapointed about this,because i knew it`s not easy to create a mmorpg, but also it`s not impossible and with a little will and good management of modest funds i would`ve finished this game. uff

i`ve searched over and over and seen some mmorpg creation engines that might include 40-60% from what i want to do (torque , realmcrafter, nel, planeshift) and thought to create a team experienced on one of those engines that could complete my ideea a little sooner than creating everything from scratch. what do you think ? i`ll be able to do that with 20-30k ?

I'm chiming in from the low-budget part. We are hoping to be able to make an MMORPG on a self-funded $25,000. We know it's quixotic.

To answer you:

1) I am risking money on my belief that it is possible. My team includes me (Cat herder, businessperson, writer, ombudsman), 5 programmers who are proficient in multiple OS and not only C, C++, but also scripting languages, and 1 person who has been a game tester and RPG supplement writer. This is a joint effort, and unpaid for them unless the MMO comes to fruition. It is a labor of love and challenge. Not a "We'll make millions", but a "Hmm, I wonder if we can pull this off?" In order to make an MMO on $35k-ish, you have to come at it from that angle.

2) Right now, all we have is 5 programmers and 2 "overall designers". Since we have no money to pay anyone, art will be added last, after we're sure we have the mechanics worked out right. In about 4 months, we will need a database designer, to ensure solid footing for the MMO. How did I get these people to work for me for free? They believe that I can organize it and make it all work, what they make. You will need to be (or get) a manager who can really accomplish it. (And good Project Management software. We're using Basecamp, right now, the free version.)

3) Now, yes it's possible to make an MMO on that. Is it possible to make a -good- MMO? Ask me in 2 years, which brings me to your time question. Nobody on my team is qutting their Day Job, so we're assuming about 2.5 years of development, with people doing it in their spare time. The reason this time is so short, is because we're using open license stuff where we can, and really cheap stuff where we need to pay for something. Linux, Python, Twisted Network, Texture Bin, Ogg music, Digital Juice's SoundFX CD (on sale now for $249), and

4) we chose Panda3D, although Ogre3D was originally considered. I don't know that Panda is the "best" engine, but it's the "free one that does what we need". (Unreal is probably the best, but it costs a pretty penny.) Using a pre-made engine knocks off a couple years from development, since we can't afford a team of programmers working 40 hours a week, writing C. Not sure where you are, but in the United States, people get paid a lot more. If you're in the Ukraine or something, $30k may go much further than it does here. :)

That said, make sure your expectations are also right. My team's not looking to make the next World of Warcraft, and not even looking to make the next Second Life. We're assuming maybe 7,000 players will be intrigued enough to play a niche game we're designing. :) On 30k, you won't be probably making the next multimillion dollar hit, but bringing joy to a few thousand would be cool.

So don't get overly wordless; but you do have a decision to make. It will be hard, odds are against you and you need incredible management. Like climbing Mt. Everest.. it can be done, it's just really hard.

Thank you ellis1138 , that`s the exact type of management i want to apply to my project.

All i have to do is gather few enthusiasts like me that have some programming skills (i already have an artwork creator) and start dooing the job .

BTW , have you tested planeshift engine (it`s GPL) ? looks quite interesting , and has a very good server sofware already done. I would like your oppinion on it, i`m very curious of what ppl think about that engine

We haven't tested that engine, as it's not even proven yet, and the way their GPL license is worded makes me uncomfortable.

My team also doesn't want a "finished" server code with art and stories; we have some specific things we need done, so that's where Panda3D is good for us, since we're building our own game engine. Also, since we're coding in Python, Panda3D works incredibly well with that. So, our graphics will not be revolutionary, but we hope our gameplay will be interesting and unique for what we're doing. :)

It's interesting how many people are looking at the web as an echo chamber to validate opinions they already have.

Yes. It's possible to start an mmog for 20K.

It's pretty much always a designer ("I play WoW, they suxors, I can do better. My elves wouldn't be so weenie") or a programmer ("It's easy... 3 weeks to make the basic rendering engine, another 3-4 weeks for the server, and we'll launch in time for christmas"). In both cases, they're missing the point. Even if you were given the source-code WoW's engine (stripped of assets), building and launching an MMOG is HARD WORK.

You require an insane amount of content to drive a game that's supposed to operate 24/7 for months (or years). Artists aren't dumb, and (contrary to programmer assumption), they know how to count. For an average MMOG, you'd struggle to pull it off with less than 10-15 GOOD artists. And they want to get paid (artists rarely buy into the open-source credo, for some reason).

You require an insane amount of gameplay specific code (above and beyond the core game engine, network and backend server). It's not very sexy code (80% is UI, feedback and tweaking), so unpaid staff will tend to skirt it when they can. If they wanted to do boring stuff, they'd stick to their dayjobs (that perenial OpenSource issue)

You require an insane amount of testing and tweaking to make everything stable, cheat-proof and balanced.

You then have to launch this; which requires marketing, customer support, sales, 24/7 hosting (hell hath no fury like an MMOG player spurned), patching, upgrading. You need to commit yourself to this monster till death do you part, and if you're LUCKY that isn't for at least 1 year, since that's your break-even point for fixed costs.

And your staff have all got dayjobs. So who's getting out of bed at 3am when the server crashes? Who's going to field angry users complaining that the Elves are overpowered, and that the UI isn't as great as WoW? Who's going to put in crunch when the latest patch crashes the server, and you need to scramble to fix it?

Lastly; while it's okay to mess around at this (and some people do manage to finish budget/OSS MMOGs), the moment you take someone's money, it's not fun and games any more. 20-30K USD in romania is probably 1-2 years average salary for an engineer. There will be contracts, legal repercussions for non-compliance / failure to execute, all sorts of fun. Whoever is handing out this money will want to ensure it's not going to buy you a house.

but hey; don't let that stop you.

Maybe you CAN make an MMOG for 20-30K USD.

Allan

Quote: Original post by HopTim
Because i don`t have so much experience in game developing i want to ask you guis few questions:

Lack of experience greatly increases the chance of failure and if you fail it is unlikely that someone will invest another 20-30k. You would be better off using that money to make several smaller games which you sell over the net. With each game you make you learn more (and because they are smaller your mistakes will be less likely to kill the game) and as you make more games you make more money. You take that money and make a bigger game until you get to the point where you have enough money and enough knowledge to make your dream game.

Replying to _Odin_:

I'm the one with the self-financed, dayjob staff, who are cognizant and aware of the 24/7 issues. I'm the designated stayer-upper-at-3am. :)

The original poster is the one who's being given money by a sponsor.

But yeah, you bring up a lot of points that most of the "i want to make gam" folks overlook. In an FPS, you finish it and it's done, for better or worse. Running a persistant online world is like having a baby who cries all the time.