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RPG-like advancement & motivation

Started by January 23, 2001 09:58 PM
55 comments, last by pwd 23 years, 10 months ago
One other possibility would be to take a very limited number of motivations, and really develop them, so that they are bulletproof. Get an initial implementation, and sort of "test the waters". May not meet all of the goals that I have set forth, but it would be a start...

I think Thief would be a good example of this (at least certain levels). There is only one real motivation (greed), and you are rewarded for following it in a way. (that is, can you buy that spare rope arrow, etc). It doesn''t matter whether you slaughtered everyone, or didn''t touch a hair on anyones head, just that you followed your goal as much as possible. The setting would hand out the consequences for these extraneous actions, but the reward system just ignored the "noise". Hope that made sense

Basically, we get the initial system down, then we start to build on the foundation, to make the games that we really want to be making (start taking out the linearity, adding changable motivations, etc)

Or we could try to do everything all at once

-pwd
Let me clarify, im making no assumptions about the underlying design of the project, rather making a point that the UI plays a critical and defining role in any project. Like you said it does make or break a game, and im more intreseted in how/what UI pwd is considering to use. I think if you approach a problem from the end of design toward UI you might find you''ve bottlenecked yourself to the possible options, im suggesting approach it from UI to desgin. However that is really your choice. Truthfully when i design a game/app i approach it from the UI -> design myself.

Seemless UI + deep and intresting design usually + engaging graphics usually = success. That has been my observeration, and i dont think any game which succeeds, has done so in spite of its UI. As for diablo being a kill fest, well thats what its designed to be. Diablo descended from the rogue games (text base dungeon crawlers), where the whole point was to kill things and get stuff. As for it being mindless, hardly anymore than any other action game.

I think its possible for a new paradime in CRPGs to comeabout. However, it would have to be equally radical in its design as its UI.

Good Luck

-ddn
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quote: Original post by pwd

One other possibility would be to take a very limited number of motivations, and really develop them, so that they are bulletproof. Get an initial implementation, and sort of "test the waters". May not meet all of the goals that I have set forth, but it would be a start...


I agree completely.

quote:
I think Thief would be a good example of this (at least certain levels). There is only one real motivation (greed), and you are rewarded for following it in a way. (that is, can you buy that spare rope arrow, etc). It doesn''t matter whether you slaughtered everyone, or didn''t touch a hair on anyones head, just that you followed your goal as much as possible. The setting would hand out the consequences for these extraneous actions, but the reward system just ignored the "noise". Hope that made sense


Again, fantastic thinking. That''s always been my thoughts on missions/quests. Have the computer only worry that the end result happens, and let the player use whatever strategies that he/she comes up w/ to complete the goal, then you allow for a great amount of creativity and less linearity.

quote:
Or we could try to do everything all at once


It''s my inexperienced, amateur opinion that when it comes to AI related stuff it''s best to start small and build making it more complex as you go.





http://www15.brinkster.com/nazrix/main.html

"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi
i was just wondering with the bridge example, if the bridge was the only way out, then i think it could be accounted for for rewards. what u might wanna do is have the people running from the dragon screaming and allow the avitar to hear these cries. so set a "safe" distance from a person to the dragon (i.e. the dragon can''t/won''t attack if it''s > 30 feet away). blowing up the bridge between people and dragon causes the dragon to go home cuz people r outta range. w/ the bridge being the on;y way off island, remember who blew it up. the dragon knows the bridge is blown so he stops the chase, so reward avitar(but on;y if the dragon was chasing someone, not just walking around). just throwing thoughts out there. if every entity "thinks", then it will know something is preventing something else. so who stopped this? reward them. i probly missed somethin here so forgive me


--I don''t judge, I just observe
Stuck in the Bush''s, Florida
--I don't judge, I just observeStuck in the Bush's, Florida
ddn,
No offense was meant, I''m merely trying to keep the specifics of implementation out of this as much as possible at the moment, so that I can fully explore the possibilities. I think that you can drop this system into a wide variety of UI/graphical models just like you can with the traditional kill goblin, gain 200 xp systems.

UI and graphics may come up at some point, but they will probably be best left to a seperate thread, perhaps referencing this one and others

BTW- I usually work the other way around, build a core, and then build the UI over that core. There are situations where you will have to replace the UI with another system (different platforms, new technology, etc). Trust me on this one

Nazrix,
Starting to sound like a plan. Incremental development is my friend Perhaps this is a more realistic approach than trying to change the world all at once... Although I still want to explore the idea a little more before setting something in stone (code).

Dynamite,
{laugh} Strangely enough, I think in a truly non-linear game, the avatar would never even have to know, or do anything about the situation. If they do know, and decide to do something about it, then great, if they don''t know or decide not to do anything, then ok as well... Your suggestion could be one possible way of handling some tricky situations though

I''m running out of caffeine

-pwd
quote: Original post by pwd
Dynamite,

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I do think in multiplayer, there could be interesting consequences of using this motivational system. There could be players competing to achieve the same goals, or with complimentary motivations/teamplay like I mentioned before. Perhaps a motivation with a parameter (like the revenge motivation) could have a player as a target... The only problem I see with this, is what do you do when the other player is offline, or quits entirely? But, if you can change your motivation through gameplay, this might be acceptable.

-pwd

i think if a player is targeted for revenge, then it adds 2 the drama w/ the on/off-line deal. someone is not always easily accessible and goals aren''t always easily attainable. more devoted players will work 2 find out when their target is on and make it their business 2 get him/her. i think the secondary goals will play better here cuz the player can do something else while their target is offline. or maybe they might go increase their backstabbing skill so when target does get online, it''ll be an easier task.

i also think that denying reward as opposed to punishment could work, but what if a priest murdurs a beggar? i would think that murdur is completely against his goal and he should be punished somewhat. the same applies 2 greed, by giving money to the poor, without sicenrity(since u really want a whole lot more $) should be punished some way even though it''s seen as morally good. i think the opposites of ur goal should come w/ punishment.



--I don''t judge, I just observe
Stuck in the Bush''s, Florida
--I don't judge, I just observeStuck in the Bush's, Florida
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One thing to think about:

How people go about attaining their motivation is an important part of their personality. If 2 people are greedy, one is a thief and the other is an honest person who works their way up in a business or something the one who''s a thief is much different. Perhaps this consideration should be handled by a totally different system however.



http://www15.brinkster.com/nazrix/main.html

"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi
quote: Original post by Nazrix

One thing to think about:

How people go about attaining their motivation is an important part of their personality. If 2 people are greedy, one is a thief and the other is an honest person who works their way up in a business or something the one who''s a thief is much different. Perhaps this consideration should be handled by a totally different system however.


but doesn''t this play into "how" the player acquires his goal? should the busiessman get more for being just or the same(as the thief) because he''s after his goal?


--I don''t judge, I just observe
Stuck in the Bush''s, Florida
--I don't judge, I just observeStuck in the Bush's, Florida
Dynamite,
Well, I don''t think the businessman should get "more". I just think that how someone attains their goal should have some infulence on the world...be it through repuation or something. That''s why I thought that what I mentioned would probably be in a totally different system by itself.

I guess that was a bit OT, but it made sense at the time



http://www15.brinkster.com/nazrix/main.html

"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi
quote: Original post by Nazrix

Dynamite,
Well, I don''t think the businessman should get "more". I just think that how someone attains their goal should have some infulence on the world...be it through repuation or something. That''s why I thought that what I mentioned would probably be in a totally different system by itself.

I guess that was a bit OT, but it made sense at the time

yeah i''m w/ u Naz, i was just curious 2 ur meaning. people r treated differently depending on how they r perceived by others. maybe reputation could lead to easier/more opportunities to acheive a goal, not so much as more exp or direct benefits, but the opening up of more possibilities.





--I don''t judge, I just observe
Stuck in the Bush''s, Florida
--I don't judge, I just observeStuck in the Bush's, Florida

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