There''s also the issue of repeative tasks in games. Like it was mentioned earlier about feeling like a task master. This repeativness withdraws from the imersion in a big way. You just have to look at movies to see what i''m talking about. If a movie keeps going over the same area over and over its not drawing people in, its just keeping them at a safe distance. Really this would have to be one of the main reasons in my books why games can''t immerse people like movies.

Also if you do look at the games that have somewhat succeeded in creating a deep suspension of disbelief like Thief, Halflife and even Doom to an extent you see that the elements and prop like images in the game keep changing. I''d say that this is one of the primary areas that produce or deduct from creating for the player a neo-reality that pulls them in. Although the highly interlectual audience would probably disagree and probably say that the script is the most important aspect. But i doubt they''d say that a bad set would not withdraw from the feeling of immersion either.

A designer doesnt need to know everything about code, they just have to have an appreciation for its limitations and how those limitations affect features they may wish to include in their design. - Drew

Doesn''t it sorta come out to being an art type thing.

I was chanel surfing the other day. I pause on one channel, and there''s this art dealer talking with a photographer about his latest work.

"This pigeon of the step photo. Is it an expression about the struggle of man trying to keep ahead of technology in this fast pased ever changing world?"

"Uh, no. I was just waiting at the bus stop and just thought it''d make a cool picture."

Don''t we just think we have a cool idea for a game and go on and build it? Then later on some poet or 8th grade english teacher comes buy, picks it apart and turns it into something more. Then a few people go, "... hey yeaah... I see what you''re saying. So this guy is like whatsisname from that book and blah blah blah..."

When a game is trying on purpose to be that deep experience to the player, doesn''t feel kinda preachy or something. Or you notice what it''s trying to do and it kinda ruins the whole thing. It does for me anyway.

"Is Tetris a metaphor for the story of Chicken Little?"
"Naw, just thought it''d make a cool game."

quote: Original post by ahw

The immersion factor is totally independant, and not really related to "that feeling" of being a small part of a bigger picture.

If you are something like one unit in an ongoing struggle, or one element in a process evolving in a certain direction, then that''s enough to make you feel like part of something greater.

Then what''s necessary?

To put the evolving process in place (say, a great war or whatever)

Then to put the player in the process.

Then give him tools to alter the process, but not completely.

Then give him enough information or enough of an overview that he can see the process in action.

Is this "voila!"?



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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by Paul Cunningham

There''s also the issue of repeative tasks in games. Like it was mentioned earlier about feeling like a task master. This repeativness withdraws from the imersion in a big way. You just have to look at movies to see what i''m talking about. If a movie keeps going over the same area over and over its not drawing people in, its just keeping them at a safe distance. Really this would have to be one of the main reasons in my books why games can''t immerse people like movies.

I guess, though, as ahw was saying, you can still feel like you''re part of something larger but still not be immersed (although I wouldn''t want to risk putting the player in that position, so I agree with you.)



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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by kseh

Doesn''t it sorta come out to being an art type thing.
...

"Is Tetris a metaphor for the story of Chicken Little?"
"Naw, just thought it''d make a cool game."

I don''t buy this. Many authors go after a theme deliberately. They deliberately try to address some over arching issue. The recent movie Traffic for example (which I''ve only seen trailers & reviews of) is supposed to both tackle being an action movie, and a greater commentary on the failed drug war in the US. It''s "about something bigger."

It''s much harder to translate this into game terms, though. Although putting the player in a universe/world where something bigger is happening all around them, and giving that "something bigger" significance (be it social, political, human nature, etc.) might be a good place to start.



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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by Wavinator
I guess, though, as ahw was saying, you can still feel like you''re part of something larger but still not be immersed (although I wouldn''t want to risk putting the player in that position, so I agree with you.)

Well, all I am saying is that immersion is a separate problem to solve. Immersion can be achieved by other "short-sighted" tricks such as the fear effect refered to above : Alien vs Predator is incredibly immersive in Marine mode, for instance. Any good Quake like, etc ...

but the feeling of being part of something bigger is quite different. I can''t help but think about Babylon 5. The heroes are not extremely effective, but they are on the edge. If they don''t do anything for sure they wont win. And if they do, they can only hope for the best. It''s their constant struggle to save Peace, and then win the War that is so fascinating, I believe. Their desperate effort against enormous problems, and the fact that even though they do their best, they cant solve everything : the importance of the Vorlons, the constant problems with Earth, and the other amassador Homerworlds ...

sorry no time to type type rest, but do you get what I am talking about ?

youpla :-P

quote:
Wavinator:
I don''t buy this. Many authors go after a theme deliberately. They deliberately try to address some over arching issue. The recent movie Traffic for example (which I''ve only seen trailers & reviews of) is supposed to both tackle being an action movie, and a greater commentary on the failed drug war in the US. It''s "about something bigger."

It''s much harder to translate this into game terms, though. Although putting the player in a universe/world where something bigger is happening all around them, and giving that "something bigger" significance (be it social, political, human nature, etc.) might be a good place to start.

I just think that either game or movie, it should be enjoyable first. Then, after you''re well hooked, you pick up on those deeper meanings. If you try too hard to make your work "something bigger" people would/might just notice your effort and not take in the... uh... biggerness? In English class, we always would read the story or poem once first, then pick it apart. But not while you''re reading, it just spoils it when you''re looking out for the symbolism.

As for how to go about it, I think maybe it''s in the little things. The things you wouldn''t otherwise notice unless it was pointed out. Like maybe your phaser banks have a little label that says ACME on it and you main computer is made by (idunno) IBM. Now send the player out on a mission for IBM. Even something simple. You might get an effect like, IBM sent us out on a mission, we lost half our crew, they ripped us off, I''m not buying from IBM again. You got that evil faceless corporation thing.

Also I gotta figure governments aren''t just gonna send people on pointless missions just for the sake of employing them. Things going on in the background might be good for that. Say you get a job to collect some ChemicalX in a dangerous region of space. There''s only the one contract on account of it being a dangerous / important mission. You go out, come back, get paid. A month later that empire announces they have a new devistating weapond. You think about it for a sec and realise that you were the one who got the one cruical element to that weapond. That empire has now become very powerful. It also happens to be where IBMs HQ is.

I can think of a few ways to make it so the player would be a part of something greater, but making the player actually feel that way is the tough part. You might notice that you had an effect on the system, but will you think of it as having an effect on the universe? Maybe. But since character development (personality wise) isn''t easy to do in a game, I gotta figure the way to go is in the details.

Wavinator QUOTE
"To put the evolving process in place (say, a great war or whatever)
Then to put the player in the process.
Then give him tools to alter the process, but not completely.
Then give him enough information or enough of an overview that he can see the process in action."
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SO

Doom definitely gave the feeling of being in a world, but that you were confined to whichever section of the world that you were in by Geographical and physical barriers. Ie. How many of us looked at the mountains in the distance and wondered how to get to them? --until eventually we found that we couldn''t and that they were "just" bitmaps >ie. the suspension of disbelief was broken when we messed around with level creation.

Information
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So in this case make a Mars style world where you can see / contact the other stations via many different methods.. ie. seeing out of the window to it. Remote probes, video conferencing, messages, newspapers. As the game goes on glimpses and warnings of the deterioration (aliens, gas leaks, radiation, pyhrric rescue attempts etc?) in the other stations are fed to the player. As the station they are in slowly disintegrates.

Add "PEOPLE characters" who are emotionally involved in this as part of the player environment. Ie. reports from the captain saying that the dropship has been refused (why is this? funding cuts? sabotage?).

And thus when they see or hear the "Phobos anomaly" being sucked into the vacuum they will be involved and wonder what is really going on.

You can also give the player info on the bigger picture ie. there a 6 planets in the system. and slowly reports are filtering back about occurences on these planets... done well the player may IMAGINE that the same is happening undetected on the planets that aren''t being reported on.