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Original post by Trapper Zoid I think fantasy settings tend to lead to the epic, mostly because of the connontations behind a fantasy world. When I think of "fantasy", I think of elves, talking trees, trolls, dragons, fairy folk, flying horses etc., vast cities, dark forests, mysterious caves, ruined castles and so on. Fantasy usually involves a massive complex world that you want to explore. However, there has to be a reason for the protagonist to explore the fantasy world. Thus most games usually include a quest that involves travelling the entire expanse of the world at least once. The epic quest is the one that tends to fit this model the best. I suppose it would be possible to think of a non-epic quest that involves travelling around the world (maybe a travelling salesman or circus), but that doesn't have the punch of the epic to tie a story together. There's also the weight of tradition to go against, where fantasy equates to epic due to games already out there.

Exactly, @ connotations.

There are so many major, popular, epic fantasies, such as LotR, that "fantasy" has come to imply elves, dwarves, et al. Technically, any teenager's dream about a hot member of the opposite sex qualifies as a fantasy, as does a simple daydream that you are rich and famous. However, when you say fantasy, most people are going to think of an epic, LotR/WoW-style of fantasy.

aj_miller also has a good point. Fantasy tales do not have to be epic. However, in the context of a computer game, they nearly always are. In a P&P game, epic tales were out of the reach and scope of most homespun RPGer's. But with computer games, the scope and scale is there to do something truly magnificent, something epic.

Of course, epics do not have to be fantasy. WWII was an epic struggle, but it was not fantasy. However, epics and fantasy (2 separate genres IMO) dovetail perfectly. Add to that fact, the fact that we all have a little of the storyteller in us, and finally that the computer platform gives up the tools by which we can tell our stories, the conclusion is fairly obvious.

Since you brought up WWII, what would happen if your typical WWII game were to suddenly become a fantasy game? Would you be the guy that single handedly kills the German army and makes his way all the way down into the bottom level of Hilter's bunker (with the help of plenty of health pills sold by friendly nearby merchants) where you fight and finally kill him? WWII is indeed epic, but the typical WWII game revolves around you and/or your men only involved in relatively small operations (or only being a small part in a larger operation).

I think that's what I'm trying to get at. Assuming for the sake of discussion that we're making a WWII fantasy game, do you have to be the guy that kills Hilter in fantasy games? Or could you be something simpler like a French resistant fighter that no one has ever heard of?

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Original post by BradDaBug Since you brought up WWII, what would happen if your typical WWII game were to suddenly become a fantasy game? Would you be the guy that single handedly kills the German army and makes his way all the way down into the bottom level of Hilter's bunker (with the help of plenty of health pills sold by friendly nearby merchants) where you fight and finally kill him? WWII is indeed epic, but the typical WWII game revolves around you and/or your men only involved in relatively small operations (or only being a small part in a larger operation). I think that's what I'm trying to get at. Assuming for the sake of discussion that we're making a WWII fantasy game, do you have to be the guy that kills Hilter in fantasy games? Or could you be something simpler like a French resistant fighter that no one has ever heard of?

Wasn't there a game recently that rewrote WWII history, where you fight against Hitler's army of giant bipedal robots?

I'd have to say that my favourite non-epic quest would be "To become a pirate" a la Guybrush Threepwood.

I'd have to say The secret of Monkey Island definately qualifies as Fantasy.

I believe that the problem with most fantasy becoming epic has to do with the player always being the "hero" character. It would be refreshing to see the idea of the "anti-hero" developed into a game. I had this idea a while ago and have been thinking it over for the whole time.

What if you weren't the hero out to save the entire galaxy/world/whatever. What if you were just an average joe, trying to make his way in the world without getting eaten by the big ugly monsters that the actual heros ARE trying to thwart?

A character not inhinged by any sense of morals or ethics other than that which the player chooses to instill within them as part of their character "ideal". Perhaps you will join up with the local militia and fight the overwhelming armies of darkness endangering your small town, or perhaps you'll strike out (realizing that the town is going to be burned to the ground) and join up with the bad guys, or just do whatever it takes to stay off the radar of the major powers and play the game with the ideal in mind of just being succesful by staying alive.

This can be tied directly to the idea that any and all games that I have ever seen that allow the idea of being a "trader/merchant" or craftsman always add these features as an aside to the main idea. Why not make these trades an equally viable part of the game?

A powerful merchant can make enough money to fund his own small army, and the skills of an expert craftsman can certainly be a major factor especially in a game that involves any sort of war. While these ideas are generally associated with MMOG's, other games such as Sid Meier's "Pirates!" allows you the idea of being a peaceful "trader" character, however, with your starting ship and quick degradation of crew morale make this path a significantly harder path to follow than just sinking an spanish galleon that sails your way.

What if you were a rum runner/smuggler in some sort of hostile times? Perhaps there is a war going on, or prohibition, and you have to get your goods over the border by hook or by crook. Perhaps once you get succesful you can hire enough guards to get your caravan where it needs to be without worrying about highwaymen or the authorities, while in beginning you will need to be quick and agile as you do your best to allude those who would harrass you.

All of this can take place in a fantasy setting without ever becoming epic, and while still being fun. What really makes a game fun is trying to solve the puzzle in the optimal fashion. If you take that thought and run with it, rather than focusing on sensory overload of the player behind the screen, success can be found far easier than the alternative (in my opinion).

My two cents, something to chew on,

Vopisk

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Original post by Vopisk It would be refreshing to see the idea of the "anti-hero" developed into a game. [...] A character not inhinged by any sense of morals or ethics other than that which the player chooses to instill within them as part of their character "ideal".

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/thief-the-dark-project

:)


On a different note, I'd like to see games based on George R. R. Martin's books... truly a tale of neutral vs neutral.

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Original post by Kylotan Quote: Original post by Vopisk It would be refreshing to see the idea of the "anti-hero" developed into a game. [...] A character not inhinged by any sense of morals or ethics other than that which the player chooses to instill within them as part of their character "ideal". http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/thief-the-dark-project :) On a different note, I'd like to see games based on George R. R. Martin's books... truly a tale of neutral vs neutral.

The idea of the anti-hero is not to play the bad guy. Which is what you do in the Thief series of games. I'm not talking about exchanging the hero for the villain, or the bad guy in whatever shape or form it may take. I'm talking just a regular person, not inherintly good or evil, the player chooses that fate for them. Or chooses to remain neutral.

It's a lot like the reference I made to "Pirates!" while yes, you can become a peaceful trader, the only way to get a big enough ship, is to be a pirate and take it over, there is no option to just buy a bigger ship after your spoils amass to a great enough amount. When you force the player to take an action that is either good or evil, they are forced to play that role, even if it is only for a short duration, but nonetheless, they must play it.

Games like Thief, Evil Genius, Mafia, City of Villains, et al... all cast you into the role of the bad guy, suprisingly, most of the time, these games are not fantasy. It would be refreshing to see a fantasy game where you play Sauron and have to try and conquer Middle Earth or something like that. But I still believe that the best way to have fantasy without epic-ness, would be to create an open world with a grand, overall scheme, something akin to Morrowind, but not forcing the player to follow that path. Allow plenty of options to just be a normal person, in a normal life, with encounters that the player can trigger adding to the flair.

As I've said before, this may in the long run end the player on the good or bad side of the fence, but it is their choice to make.

My two cents, something to chew on,

Vopisk

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Original post by Vopisk Quote: Original post by Kylotan Quote: Original post by Vopisk It would be refreshing to see the idea of the "anti-hero" developed into a game. [...] A character not inhinged by any sense of morals or ethics other than that which the player chooses to instill within them as part of their character "ideal". http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/thief-the-dark-project :) On a different note, I'd like to see games based on George R. R. Martin's books... truly a tale of neutral vs neutral. The idea of the anti-hero is not to play the bad guy. Which is what you do in the Thief series of games. I'm not talking about exchanging the hero for the villain, or the bad guy in whatever shape or form it may take. I'm talking just a regular person, not inherintly good or evil, the player chooses that fate for them. Or chooses to remain neutral. It's a lot like the reference I made to "Pirates!" while yes, you can become a peaceful trader, the only way to get a big enough ship, is to be a pirate and take it over, there is no option to just buy a bigger ship after your spoils amass to a great enough amount. When you force the player to take an action that is either good or evil, they are forced to play that role, even if it is only for a short duration, but nonetheless, they must play it. Games like Thief, Evil Genius, Mafia, City of Villains, et al... all cast you into the role of the bad guy, suprisingly, most of the time, these games are not fantasy. It would be refreshing to see a fantasy game where you play Sauron and have to try and conquer Middle Earth or something like that. But I still believe that the best way to have fantasy without epic-ness, would be to create an open world with a grand, overall scheme, something akin to Morrowind, but not forcing the player to follow that path. Allow plenty of options to just be a normal person, in a normal life, with encounters that the player can trigger adding to the flair. As I've said before, this may in the long run end the player on the good or bad side of the fence, but it is their choice to make. My two cents, something to chew on, Vopisk

Fable :)

Have any of you guys read the "RPG-wiki" thread I started in the writers forum? It touches on some of the issues mentioned here. I'd like to know what you think.

Cheers

Jon

I haven't played Fable personally, but if it uses a system like I described, it might be worth taking a look.