Harvest Moon

I think fantasy settings tend to lead to the epic, mostly because of the connontations behind a fantasy world. When I think of "fantasy", I think of elves, talking trees, trolls, dragons, fairy folk, flying horses etc., vast cities, dark forests, mysterious caves, ruined castles and so on. Fantasy usually involves a massive complex world that you want to explore. However, there has to be a reason for the protagonist to explore the fantasy world. Thus most games usually include a quest that involves travelling the entire expanse of the world at least once. The epic quest is the one that tends to fit this model the best.

I suppose it would be possible to think of a non-epic quest that involves travelling around the world (maybe a travelling salesman or circus), but that doesn't have the punch of the epic to tie a story together. There's also the weight of tradition to go against, where fantasy equates to epic due to games already out there.

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I suppose it would be possible to think of a non-epic quest that involves travelling around the world (maybe a travelling salesman or circus), but that doesn't have the punch of the epic to tie a story together.

Why not? Just one example would be Tim Burtons "Big Fish".

Why is it that 90% of people, when the word "fantasy" comes up, they immediately think of elves, dwarves, dragons, and all of the stuff that Tolkien popularized. You could make a beautiful story about a young girl who travels with magical companions to find out what happened to her mother. Hiyao Miyazaki does this sort of thing all the time, and it's completely new and original fantasy. See My Neighbor Totoro, Kiki's Delivery Service, Spirited Away (which is more epic then the other two, but not Tolkien-esque), etc...

[Edited by - JBourrie on January 12, 2006 6:12:06 PM]

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Original post by JBourrie Why is it that 90% of people, when the word "fantasy" comes up, they immediately think of elves, dwarves, dragons, and all of the stuff that Tolkien popularized.

Because that's what we do [smile].

Admittedly, I tend to think of fantasy games as being the epic Tolkien-esque stuff, rather than say Super Mario Brothers (which should also be fantasy). I'm not saying that I'm correct to do so, that's just what first springs to mind.

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Admittedly, I tend to think of fantasy games as being the epic Tolkien-esque stuff, rather than say Super Mario Brothers (which should also be fantasy). I'm not saying that I'm correct to do so, that's just what first springs to mind.

Right, and actually that's usually the first thing that springs to mind with me too. It's because people rarely do anything else. But I've tried to train myself to ignore that instinct, because I think it endagers me to falling into cliche.

And Mario, especially the RPG series, are very unique and fun fantasy worlds.

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Original post by Anonymous Poster I agree with a couple of the posters above: A fantasy game is almost epic by default...go back to Homer's Illiad and Odyssey and the classic literary works that helped define the fantasy genre (Odyssey/The Inferno/Lord of the Rings/Narnia/Etc.) There is always an epic struggle such as good and evil, multiple quests that stand in the way of the hero, a journey of the hero(s), a final struggle to bring the epic tale to an end. It is simply what defines the genre. You do not read a mystery book without there being something mysterious, an unknown murderer, a shocking ending, etc. A romance novel, would be simply boring without romance, right?

And an epic would be simply boring without being epic. And epics have traditionially been the dominant form of fantasy. But fantasy is not synonymous with epic (I think that's the point of this thread, anyway).

A mystery might be an unknown murderer, or it might be a medical mystery (see the TV show "House", no really, see it, it's great!), or it might be something more supernatural. There are different types of mysteries. Romances can be about unrequited love, about a happy couple, about hard times, or even a tragedy like Romeo and Juliet.

There can also be different types of fantasy, including epics, personal journeys, spiritual journeys, survival, erotica, etc... the story doesn't have to affect the whole world. The story could be one mans personal journey to discover his place in the world, or a traveling caravan trying to survive the harsh wilderness to deliver a gift to their gods. With good writing and intriguing gameplay, these can be just as interesting as a large-scale epic, and would appeal to people who don't normally have the urge to "save the world" (such as the non-existent "middle aged women" rpg market).

Clearly this thread is concerned with plot above other elements in the fantasy genre. Certainly good gameplay does not necessary require an epic setting/story (see: Nethack)> Also many pen and paper missions for D&D never extend much beyond a single dungeon, yet just helping one poor farmer re-acquire is magic plow (or whatever) that a band of kobolds stole can be quite a lot of fun.

There are plenty of complaints these about the hackneyed Final Fantasy plotline (save the world from xyz) which I think the original poster is wanting to get away from. Literature has certainly pointed us in the direction of associating this type of plot with fantasy (as previous posters have pointed out with LOTR, Homer, Gawain and the Green Knight etc.) The keyword I think is "quest." Fantasy is predisposed to be quest based.

If anything this is just a question of marketing. Lots of succesful games don't require you to save the world (though lots are still quest based). But really its up to the designer/author to create whatever world they want. There job (in terms of $) is to keep the gamer interested in their game. This can really only be examined on a game-per-game base, not in terms of entire genres.

For example, let's say we just want to break fantasy trends, namely the quest:

What if the PC is the grumpy nativist character who doesn't like change (usually a very minor but stereotypical character who appears at the beginning of RPGs in the "home town")? Well, already your main character has the potential to be pretty humorous (a la Archie Bunker). But how do you get to do anything? One idea is backstory- why is the character (let's call him Archie) so nativist? Perhaps in his youth he actually did explore the world as a soldier in the arm, but the violence he witnessed caused to him to vow never to raise his sword again. So he tries to live a quiet life in a small hamlet. Cool! If you want to really get creative, you could have the player play out the main characters flashbacks of war thus introducing him to new characters and places. Kind of a "In Search of Lost Time" (Proust) feel to things. Keep in mind, no real questing has gone on, just a series of vignettes. All of this flashback stuff could build to the games climax where instead of seeking out the world as your traditional hero/quester does, the world comes to Archie- even though he doesn't want it to- in the form of some antagonist who we've been introduced to in flashback (sorry, but getting rid of antagonists is as stupid as it is not feasible). Archie must now decide whether to defend his small hamlet and and way of and break his vow never to fight or... what?

This is just a way to break the mold. Reinventing the wheel is very difficult. Why? Well, wheels are round for a reason. You can add spokes and rubber, but it's tough to make a wheel that ain't round.

My nickel is tossed.

I am focusing more on plot than anything else, because that's the impression I got from the post. Plus, "epic" isn't so much a gameplay style (unless it's Dynasty Warriors) as it is a storyline type.

Anyway, I agree that in most games getting rid of the antagonist would be stupid. But it also doesn't have to be a "single" antagonist. As I said before, the wilderness itself can be dangerous enough to be it's own "antagonist". Stories don't always have to be a "single, evil dictator bent on world domination".

For a book that is fantasy with a less epic feel to it Taran Wanderer by Lloyd Alexander. It is part of the Prydain Chronicles which are epic overall (though they begin with a boy looing for his run away pig)however this book is about his search for himself.

Also the true climax of LOTR, (it is here that the halflings use their new found strength and self confidence to free "paradise" completing the hero's journey) where the hobbits free the Shire, is overall rather small in scale compared to saving the world.

Another good series of books I can recommend are the Nick Perumov' continuation of the stories of the Middle Earth. It's not epic (at least, not as much), you get a fantasy world being explored step by step and not going immediately to some evil dungeon and such. They are called the Elven Blade, Spear of Darkness, and Henna's Adamante. Although they're in Russian, I highly recommend them to anyone interested in Middle Earth, um, expansions. I'm not sure that there are translations, but hey, Google is your friend :)