I don't literally mean to say that MMORPGs are a dying breed because in my opinion, they are still in their infancy. I do wish to speak about what ruins an MMORPG for me. When I first jump into a MMORPG. I am intrigued by the world, by character development, and by the options I have to effect that world. This intrigue is because of the Mystery I find in the strange new world. Nothing kills that mystery faster then a player in global/shout chat asking how to complete a quest, and the response popping up on in the text box taking away from me learning it on my own. That can of course be fixed by turning off global chat and the other chats that are not local. Although, often once that is done I am running around in a world with 1000's of people and very little conversation. Besides that fact, what really kills is for me are all the websites that reveal every mystery of the game for the whole world to see. Mystery is what I like most about MMORPGs, a great example of this was learning to become a mage in Asheron's Call. The first few "levels" where the same for all players. After the regents used to discoverer new and more powerful spells was different for all players until some one 'cracked the code' and revealed all the secrets to it on the web. soon everyone had the most powerful mage spells. That game was the only one I played that had a system like that. I think it would be great to have a system that was random in what needed to be done to learn special attacks, skills, crafting, or spells. Also perhaps a map that changes slightly for most the location of a secret tunnel (under foliage?) so that people can't give the exact location or answers. just some thoughts.

i can understand why you could get annoyed with it but there are some things to consider:

1. its a game. there are going to be help posted everywhere because its a game.

2. why bother to learn how to do something if someone can tell me how to do it. im not going to bother to figure how the inner depths of basic calculus when i can just go have someone tell me how to do it.

3. lost of people (including myself) dont have time to figure every little quest in the game out. if i can have someone tell me where to go right off the bat instead of spending an hour trying to find it myself, im going to do it.

its understandable if you dont have a job/school/anything else to do to spend that kind of time to figure all aspects out yourself, but a lot of people just dont have that kind of time.

Not to be rude, but turn off the global shout chat or don't read what is there about the quests, don't read any help websites and the such.

I agree with XxSIETHxX on this topic.

I'm still at school I and one or two friends play on Runescape. Then the most of the class joined. This totally recked it for me because of all the bragging and the fact that all the mystery was gone.

Also for RCBricker, whenever I wanted to have a contest with a friend, like try to finish a quest first I knew instantly that no matter how many times I said that it would reck the contest I knew that guy would go instantly onto runehq or some other site and go by it step by step.

I think that people who want to play the game without using guides will be at a big disadvantage, because although those who play for fun will keep the secrecy of the game, the people who want to play for superiority (get the highest level then brag/kill random people) will just go onto a site then speed through everything, ruining it.

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I want to follow the story of the game, explore and develop my char, but I can't stand when someone I know, comes in and says look at this new weapon/armor, I got it by doing X quest or cheating . I feel like the whole balance of the game is lost.

are you saying you want quests removed from mmo's? cheating is different. especially in an MMO. but if you get a weapon from a quest,its in the game for a reason. its there so people can get the weapon. its a nice reward. if you dont get anything from the quest, there is no point in doing it. going back to the 'time' issue, not everyone has time to explore every facet of the game.


one of the reasons WoW is so successful is that is can be played by the casual gamer. the guy who works 8-10 hours a day and only has some time to play for 2 hours or so isnt going to want to spend those 2 hours running around trying to find where to go for just 1 quest. its pointless to play the game then. but if i can have a guy that says 'yeah just go over there', then great. same thing happens in real life. if im trying to do something and im failing at it, people come to you and say 'hey man, try doing it like this instead'.

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why bother to learn how to do something if someone can tell me how to do it ? why bother to make my own engine if there are tons of free engines out there ? for the fun/(learning) of it!"

you seem to be suffering from the 'reinvent the wheel' syndrome. if i want to build a car, im not going to bother creating a whole new wheel, unless that is the purpose of it. im going to just take what is done. guess what you do when you learn math? you get a book and look at what others have done. you dont just grab some numbers and have at it.

Original post by tont

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you seem to be suffering from the 'reinvent the wheel' syndrome. if i want to build a car, im not going to bother creating a whole new wheel, unless that is the purpose of it. im going to just take what is done. guess what you do when you learn math? you get a book and look at what others have done. you dont just grab some numbers and have at it.

Except the unfolding mystery of a game world is "supposed" to be fun! Its not supposed to be work. Its supposed to be an adventure, an exploration.

Too bad we have a bunch of people with limited expectations of themselves playing these games. Try to play for fun and not to be better than people and you might actually enjoy your game playing experience. Not to say there is much reason for this in today's MMORPGs but with a good game you should try to enjoy the discovery. Why else would you play a single player rpg???

Its called temptation people. Most of us humans just can't handle it even though we do stuff that isn't good for us. Resisting the temptation to find out the easy way in a quest would be more rewarding but most people won't do it. Kind of like Adam and Eve and the apple and all that. So, just take the temptation away. Change the system a bit. It wouldn't be that hard to come up with different ideas (like quests shifting locations, randomness, non-quest based game, etc).

So, essentially, you want to play a normal, run of the mill single player RPG...

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Original post by Telastyn So, essentially, you want to play a normal, run of the mill single player RPG...

Once I figured that out, it was ever so easy to quit Everquest.

Right now, I'm waiting for a multiplayer game which creates the kind of dungeon crawling I crave. Basically, think Rainbox Six meets Thief meets Blade of Darkness.

Sure there are alot of walkthrus all over the place and hints and tips as to what you need to do to complete a quest, but it really doesn't make things that much easier, especially if the game is well designed.

Take Final Fantasy XI for example. Its an MMORPG and there are tons of walkthrus and guides all over the place. Sure you can look up a quest and it'll tell you to go kill so and so monster, but that's all easier said than done. The really worthwhile stuff all sound good on paper, but take alot more to complete in reality. Sure to get "so and so" weapon you'll need to go kill this dragon and everyone knows that, but the fact is, you may need up to 36 people working together for an hour to 2 to actually kill the dang thing. It takes away from the exploration, I agree with that, but when quests require you to run all over the entire world and talk to people or collect items, we're talking about spending maybe a month running around trying to find all the right people and get the right stuff just to get something that could have been gotten in a day if you just asked. Sure its nice to go to, say, New York City for the first time in your life and spend days walking around exploring all the stores, shops, streets, alleys, etc., but wouldn't your time be better spent by simply asking someone who lives in New York about what's worth seeing? We do it all the time in real life, why not in a game.

Also, guides may tell you how to complete a quest, but most don't tell you the story behind the quest. So, though you follow a walkthru, you just might still be surprised at what kind of dark or humorous twist may take place during the quest. I know its been like that for me playing FFXI.

Also, one of the main reasons for MMORPGs is for people to be able to play together. And when people get together, communities are formed and information is almost always passed around. If you want to isolate yourself from the community and want to do things yourself, you're free to turn off all chats and do so. But then you really should ask yourself, why trudge through all the simple stuff when you can fly through it and get to the bigger and better stuff ahead? Even master chefs use a cook book or two once in a while.

Time and money keep me away from MMORPGs. The last I played extensively was Asheron's Call 1, but I've spent a little time on friends' WoW accounts. So, that'll put a little perspective on what I have to say. That out of the way, here's my response:

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original post by XxSIETHxX When I first jump into a MMORPG. I am intrigued by the world, by character development, and by the options I have to effect that world. This intrigue is because of the Mystery I find in the strange new world.

I agree! Well, all except for the part about affecting the world, because that's not really an option. Of course, I don't mind that much. It's one of the necessary evils of making a massively multiplayer game that's enjoyable (especially one populated by ~10k heroes).

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Nothing kills that mystery faster then a player in global/shout chat asking how to complete a quest, and the response popping up on in the text box taking away from me learning it on my own. That can of course be fixed by turning off global chat and the other chats that are not local.

Turning off global chat is one of the first things I do in large multiplayer games. I couldn't believe how little I missed it and how much it improved the S/N the first time I did it. Worth it if only to NoT ReaD TeXT LiKe THiS.

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Although, often once that is done I am running around in a world with 1000's of people and very little conversation.

Note in my experience. I still had conversations with passersby, those in town, those I was fighting with. Basically, only those worth talking with.

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Besides that fact, what really kills is for me are all the websites that reveal every mystery of the game for the whole world to see.

Don't read them.

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Mystery is what I like most about MMORPGs, a great example of this was learning to become a mage in Asheron's Call. The first few "levels" where the same for all players. After the regents used to discoverer new and more powerful spells was different for all players until some one 'cracked the code' and revealed all the secrets to it on the web. soon everyone had the most powerful mage spells.

[sick] I thought that was a horrible system. I approve of what they were trying to do, but it just didn't work. Cracking the code would've been fun (Note: I wasn't the one who did that), but just randomly trying different combinations? That's time consuming and not fun.

Out of curiosity, what did you think of their other system to cut back on high level mages? I think it was called the mana pool. More mages = spreading the mana pool a bit thin = decrease in magic power. (I think it was a horrid idea, mostly because they wouldn't/couldn't stick with it. Instead of letting the system work, they kept increasing the number of mages who could effectively use magic.)

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That game was the only one I played that had a system like that. I think it would be great to have a system that was random in what needed to be done to learn special attacks, skills, crafting, or spells.

I'd agree, if it was both random and something you could crack the code to. For instance, building on the Asheron's Call magic system, randomizing which component set affected which aspect of magic, and randomizing what element each component in a set was associated with. Then there would be fewer guides to magic (um... yeah... it's random... just... try stuff), and it's something to be figured out for each individual.

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Also perhaps a map that changes slightly for most the location of a secret tunnel (under foliage?) so that people can't give the exact location or answers.

This'd be cool for some, but not all. Some things need to be in a certain place for effect. But I like the idea in general (would've fit well with Asheron's Call's gates).

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original post by Peter Conn Also for RCBricker, whenever I wanted to have a contest with a friend, like try to finish a quest first I knew instantly that no matter how many times I said that it would reck the contest I knew that guy would go instantly onto runehq or some other site and go by it step by step.

Your friend sounds like an ass. [wink] But, seriously, if I had a contest with friends like that, I could trust them to play fair. Set it out in the rules (it is a contest, contests have rules). If they break the rules, you win by default.

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I think that people who want to play the game without using guides will be at a big disadvantage, because although those who play for fun will keep the secrecy of the game, the people who want to play for superiority (get the highest level then brag/kill random people) will just go onto a site then speed through everything, ruining it.

So, basically, those who play for fun won't look at the guides and have a good time exploring and those who want to play for superiority will read a guide an be superior. Sounds like a win-win! [grin] Of course, when I read your post, I thought "why are the two (playing for fun and playing for superiority) mutually exclusive?" I'm guessing that you actually want to be superior (otherwise why would their superiority be a problem?) and get there by figuring it out on your own (otherwise you'd just get a guide and there would be no problem).

And big disadvantage? In what way? If you're afraid of being PK'd, well, that's a fact of life. Unless you're at the top of the heap (chances of that are slim unless you leave real life behind) there's always going to be someone bigger who'll kill you just for kicks.

If you're afraid of missing out on content others get to see, then there's no real solution. The quests could be made easier (then you'd probably complain there was no challenge). The quests could be made such that guides won't help (then you wouldn't get to see more content, others would just get to see less).

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original post by Pluvious Except the unfolding mystery of a game world is "supposed" to be fun! Its not supposed to be work. Its supposed to be an adventure, an exploration.

But it often is simply work. Asheron's Call's magic system is a great example.

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Too bad we have a bunch of people with limited expectations of themselves playing these games. Try to play for fun and not to be better than people and you might actually enjoy your game playing experience.

It sounds like tont is having plenty of fun. When did it ever sound like he wasn't having fun? When did it sound like he was trying to be better than someone else?

How about a real life example? I'm a student, studying materials science. Why? Because I enjoy finding out how the world works. I have fun learning about what I'm studying. However, I don't feel the need to reinvent the wheel. "No thanks, I don't need to read Hecht, I'm going to grind my own lenses and learn about optics all by my lonesome!"

Would it be wrong to ask someone for some help with a quest? Probably not. It doesn't seem so very different to get help from a guide.

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Not to say there is much reason for this in today's MMORPGs but with a good game you should try to enjoy the discovery. Why else would you play a single player rpg???

Not everyone plays single player rpgs, but, if you must know, the game side of those games is fun, too. Customizing your characters, watching them grow, it's like a garden.

Or, to turn it around, why don't you play a single player rpg?

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Its called temptation people. Most of us humans just can't handle it even though we do stuff that isn't good for us. Resisting the temptation to find out the easy way in a quest would be more rewarding but most people won't do it. Kind of like Adam and Eve and the apple and all that. So, just take the temptation away. Change the system a bit. It wouldn't be that hard to come up with different ideas (like quests shifting locations, randomness, non-quest based game, etc).

I don't know that the majority of guide readers would get more enjoyment from a system like this. I think most of them want to see what there is to see and want the easiest path to it. Of course, a game like this should be made, for those who would like it.