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Original post by Jotaf Hmm... I don't know why, but there's something about this explanation of spirits possessing characters that I don't like too much. It's probably the whole problem of indirection and being harder to relate to the character.

Yes, that's one big drawback that doesn't sit well with me. If it's explained outright that you're an Indwelling, you don't get that same since of immediacy that being mortal brings. So I'm again seeing this as a backstory/story problem, because the moment you die and realize that the game has no out-of-game quickload, I think you'll probably not mind that the game includes life after death.

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What about this alternative to keep it simple: Go with bloodlines, but more abstracted, by making the player only know of the member of the family that he's playing with right now, and a couple more. The player would control a member of the family at a time, and nothing more. The family is considered big enough that it's not relevant to show them all at the same time; this removes the problems associated with having no offspring, waiting for a child to grow, and the conditions in which he/she grows -- because the next member in line simply "pops up" into existance, and you're free to attach whichever story you want to it, as well as age, and stats due to past experiences.

How would you handle these scenarios, though:

• You invest 30 hours into making a character, complete with unique attributes and "just so" balancing and customization. Then that character dies (but there is no quickload). Now everything from the character's name to their unique identity in your mind is lost.
  
  
• Family infighting and intrigue and betrayal within a dynasty (brother against brother or child rebellion theme)
  
  
• Character customization, stat loadout and leveling
  
  
• Collapse and calamity, such as with the collapse of a colony, invasion of an empire, or nuclear war
  

I'd like to include these aspects in order to really surprise you with wildly different scenarios and challenges. But a fixed family wouldn't work for these problems.

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To help in relating with the new characters, they would all have the same last name (many times the character would be refered to only by this name -- this would have a bigger impact than it might seem at first, because the player is reminded of the connections of this character to the previous ones); and anything common to the whole family would be useful as well, like joint possessions, enemies of the family, and anything that can be carried from one character to the other.

I actually don't mind these aspects, they're pretty cool. But they're technically possible even if you're an Indwelling.

If you can completely integrate with a host and play for long time periods with there being no real difference between you and the host, does your concern with this idea go away? Or does the basic idea just not sit well?

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Original post by IronGryphon So basically what I am saying, while there are definately people who would be intrigued to play a spirit, unless there is something to "humanize" them, the vast majority of people (not just game players) are not going to be drawn to the idea.

You know, I'm starting to wonder if I actually need some sort of hybrid role / explanation here. Maybe you begin as a human who becomes ethereal. Your identity then is rooted in something that everyone can relate to, namely human frailty.

Just extending your explanation / human frailty idea a little.

You mentioned planning a universe with ancient and powerful artifacts. The ethereality (does such a word exist?) of the player could result from the discovery of such a "magical" item. For example:

- You explored an unknown area and found a massive space structure that re-incarnates your sole after every death, where you fly / port from the structure somewhere and start over. Examples include: the center of the universe, the origin of time, the soul of a god (living or dead, your choice), an ancient temple or weapon...

- A small stone (indistructable, of course) that once activated forever links your soul to it, giving you great power over others but at a terrible cost. Examples include: a mysterious egg-shaped object or inscribed disk.

For this to work the device in question would probably need to be part of an over-arching story in someway to avoid it being simply a convienient death avoidance device. Some ideas include either being a place to be protected or that could be used to extend the story, or as a object that allowed only you to progress along a certain path.

This has the benefit of explaining the longevity and abilities of the character without linking them to a "technology" dependent on any of the races in the current universe. I guess the drawback would be that it complicates the storyline somewhat...

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Wavinator: Is there any reason why a spirit couldn't level like any other character, developing abilities that change gameplay?

Upon further consideration, I believe I was a bit off course. A spirit could certainly level up in whatever abilities a spirit might have. Gameplay and content would really determine what'd be the best methods of doing so and the results of leveling up a power. However, if the point of being a spirit in a game (like yours, Wav) is to be able to possess people for extended periods of time, what's the point of "posesion skill level 2"? Might work great in a game where posesion level 1 lets you posess someone for half an hour and level 2 doubles that time. Posesing multiple people might also be a result of leveling up. Neither of these seem to me like they'd fit in very well into your game though.

(just some random thoughts)

There is something to be said for needing some way to develop an attachment to your character. If you don't see the character that you're really supposed to be, then you'll probably identify more with what the spirit has posessed.

It could also be that a player might suddenly get the urge to do something unprodictable with the character they've possessed. Then the games balance could be ruined, or the storyline shot, or the player's imersion level when they realise they're not allowed to do what they want.

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Quote: If you wish to offer a way to die and "respawn" easily, have people (behind the scenes) store their information in "memory capsuls", which are transmitted over some intersteller wi-fi to the home (or something similar for each race) This would include account data (bank accounts, unless you wanted a centralized family account), quest status (if applicable), weapon proficiancies, etc, and the location of the body to retrieve weaponry and such. A cool idea, but it's technology dependent. Part of the aesthetic I'm going for is that empires can utterly and completely collapse. So if you're empire collapses, what do you do if the "wi-fi" network is down? You'd have to introduce some "magical" solution, and that's not really any different than spirits.

Here's a less magical solution.

What if say at first my father were to pass on and chose to leave me his bank accounts, his assets, his debts, his address book, and whatever else. Effectively, gives me full legal control of his empire. The only condition is that before I gain possesion of these things I must name my own heir (it could my own child by blood or it could be the drunk bum down the street). If I choose to, I can change that heir at any time by visiting a lawyer. I could also choose to just hand everything over before I die and have the same requirement of the next in line (hmm... and who says i have to hand everything over to one person). Failure to provide a next of kin runs the risk of ending the game. Two or three potential people next in line could be named if desired.

I suppose lawyers might be only a human concept. However, I'd figure that any race with a concept of survival might include an element in their culture for a transfer of power. It could be religeous/political leaders within the player's race or even something established outside the player's own race. If the requirements of power transfer can be reduced to verification of identity through subspace or psionic communications, then I believe you'll find that although there is the potential for the player's dynasty to come to an end, it wouldn't happen easily. If an empire colapses, then the next of kin might need to be restablished through another race. I suppose being able to do so would depend on how many friendly races still surround you. But if you're about to play a character that'd ordinarily be considered an enemy, you can probably say that the player's dynasty has ended.

Although, I suppose the biggest flaw in this plan would be if you take the role of a murdering thief wanted accross the galaxy by everyone. It could be tricky to convince legal institutions to not just seize everything upon your death.

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You invest 30 hours into making a character, complete with unique attributes and "just so" balancing and customization. Then that character dies (but there is no quickload). Now everything from the character's name to their unique identity in your mind is lost. Family infighting and intrigue and betrayal within a dynasty (brother against brother or child rebellion theme) Character customization, stat loadout and leveling Collapse and calamity, such as with the collapse of a colony, invasion of an empire, or nuclear war

Missed the above post. My ideas don't particularly cover the infighting thing well. The creation of that infighting would be easily created if each sibling knew what dad was going to leave to them. But, if I had a son that hated me and I left him all my stuff, why would he suddenly pick up where I left off doing the same things I used to do? Short of having some requirement on the loyalty stat to be able to continue playing as the new character, I'm not sure how to get around this.

Back to the drawing board.

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Original post by Wavinator How would you handle these scenarios, though: You invest 30 hours into making a character, complete with unique attributes and "just so" balancing and customization. Then that character dies (but there is no quickload). Now everything from the character's name to their unique identity in your mind is lost. Family infighting and intrigue and betrayal within a dynasty (brother against brother or child rebellion theme) Character customization, stat loadout and leveling Collapse and calamity, such as with the collapse of a colony, invasion of an empire, or nuclear war I'd like to include these aspects in order to really surprise you with wildly different scenarios and challenges. But a fixed family wouldn't work for these problems.

Agreed, it's pretty simple and it doesn't account for these issues. Anyways...

Spending lots of time with a character and then suddenly losing him is harsh, but it happens on any design with perma-death. You can't ask a player to identify with a character and then ask him to not be upset when he dies! If the indwelling changes host, the character is still lost. No part of the old character is ever going to be transfered to a new one. This is a fundamental issue and I suspect it hasn't been discussed nearly enough.

However, I had a sudden inspiration of what might fix this: don't attempt to merge both characters (the indwelling and the host), but rather make them more distinct! Think of the indwelling as a tiny creature on the host's shoulder, actively debating with him what they should do. This is the feeling I'd love to see captured. When the character dies, you still have a reason to go on: in the player's eyes, the indwelling is still a character! It's like when one of the main characters dies in a novel, but life goes on.


Still trying to deal in a simplistic way with the problems you've mentioned in a heritage system:
A betraying or opposing family character cannot be possessed, and is treated like any other antagonist. Customization of the family member you chose begins in the game, after you chose it; this could be even more interesting than being handed over a character like you want. Collapse and calamity are dealt simply by saying that the family is spread out over a number of colonies.


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PaulCesar: Sorry must've missed your post :) Anyways I think I sprinkled a few more ideas in the midst, so my post wasn't a total loss :P

Okay, the feedback here has really made me rework some of this (which is why posting here is so awesome!) [grin]

The biggest problem I think this idea has had is dumping it in the forum without enough context. If someone asked about the gameplay for a messiah, I think the response here would be pretty negative. And yet if you look at Morrowind, that's exactly what you are, and it's made just fine because the game starts you off with a pretty humble beginning and lets you know what you are over time.

I think I'm going to steal that approach. I'd planned to make you the "spirit" of Destiny, the Indwelling with the power of choosing fates and futures. What will probably work best is to bury this in mystery and make you an average joe with a secret origin. You won't find out what you are until you explore branches of the storyline. This, in turn, will activate powers and host options.

I think I'll try to offer three options: An "empty" host, a sympathetic host and an antagonistic host. The empty hosts will be due to cloning while sympathetic/antagonistic hosts will be in connection to secret societies, families and/or special NPCs throughout the world. Empty hosts won't have faction/family stats, and will be at risk if the society collapses, but will be the easiest to use. Hosts, OTOH, because they have lives, will have a MUCH wider range of encounters and situations to deal with.

(For those who care about story) I'm going to make the Indwellings the surviving essence of an ancient alien race that's been uplifting / manipulating humankind.

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Original post by Jotaf If the indwelling changes host, the character is still lost. No part of the old character is ever going to be transfered to a new one.

This isn't quite so (I should explain this better).

As an Indwelling, I've been thinking that you'll have stats and abilities which modify those of the host. You'll also have an energy resource, in the form of Lifeforce, which allows you to level and develop greater abilities.

What you won't have are the host's skills, ways to retain their possessions, their network of contacts and their reputation among the game's various factions. Without a host, you also can't interact with the world.

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However, I had a sudden inspiration of what might fix this: don't attempt to merge both characters (the indwelling and the host), but rather make them more distinct! Think of the indwelling as a tiny creature on the host's shoulder, actively debating with him what they should do. This is the feeling I'd love to see captured. When the character dies, you still have a reason to go on: in the player's eyes, the indwelling is still a character! It's like when one of the main characters dies in a novel, but life goes on.

Hey, this is exactly what I was thinking! [cool]

If I make this a story-based option and you chose to have a host, the host will have a life, personality and even occassional inner voice. The host will communicate with you just as a sidekick NPC would, will always be available, and can be used to help guide you through challenges and puzzles.

I'm thinking that the more blended with the host you are, the more you guide their actions. If you're symbiotic, you blend with them more and more as you look after them and help them to realize their goals. The host will have a greater and greater amount of "off time" the less in harmony you are, meaning that they'll get into trouble or do things in the game world without your knowledge.

I think if I make this a story-based "take it or leave it" option, I might get the best of both worlds. If you hate tomagotchi/Sims-like gameplay, either use clones or ruthlessly compel hosts. But if you want an open-ended mix of both direct control and alife, be a symbiotic Indwelling.

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A betraying or opposing family character cannot be possessed, and is treated like any other antagonist.

I think I'm going to make possession a matter of a stat (Will). NPCs then can be randomly generated with random stats, offering a sort of "challenge landscape." Possessing someone will cost Lifeforce (your main resource) that's some geometric multiple of an NPC's Will. I think this way you'll be able to jump from body to body, but not quickly, as you'll spend Lifeforce taking them over (weakening yourself), then have to do things to the host to regenerate it.

It also seems right that those that have more power / weapons / control have a higher Will. So you can change the world by hijacking characters, but taking over the Chief of Police is a LOT harder than taking over a drunken derelict. I also think that by weakening you (by spending Lifeforce), you'll have to make strategic decisions about who to hijack (made more risky by not knowing everything about their life, such as their enemies or vices).

Anyway, for the family feuding possibilities, I think I'll make it a simple matter of Will and cunning. If your son or brother backstabs you, you could possess them, but only if you turn parasitic, get close enough, and want to risk losing your original host.

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Customization of the family member you chose begins in the game, after you chose it; this could be even more interesting than being handed over a character like you want. Collapse and calamity are dealt simply by saying that the family is spread out over a number of colonies.

I don't think I need this deus ex now that I've firmed this up a bit.

Customization of the family should begin when you choose to build one, either by finding a spouse, surrogate, or tech option (like an exowomb). Family gets tracked the same way any other allies get tracked, and have whatever gameplay I can add that involves relationship building among NPCs (just as with the crew of a starship).

You'll set up a succession of hosts by some power (Imbuing them). Hosts will only let you Imbue them if they have a very good relationship with you. If your host dies, you can snap to any previously Imbued host.

Without a host, you'll lose Lifeforce until you wander the gameworld and find a receptive / weak host that you can join / tempt / compel /etc.

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Original post by Madster Where's my Posession UI, how to know when I'm in proper range? Why can't I posess this guy but this other I can?

This is a critical "make or break" element. I'm thinking of making the range touch based, maybe with some anim of you putting a hand up to the target's head or heart. Armor or a simple locked door, then, would be a defense, forcing you to rely on the host.

Maybe for cost you should get some sort of crackling colored lightning sphere whose intensity indicates the cost of possessing them. If I go with some spectral bar to represent Lifeforce, a portion of the bar could change to that color, indicating how much you're going to lose. This probably should be a risk, as well, so that you could spend the Lifeforce and not possess them.

I'm also thinking (for stealth and tactics) that the facing direction and awareness of the target should matter. Possessing someone from the front would be harder than from the back.

If you leak Lifeforce without a host, technically you could jump out of a body and run up to a target. You'd be invisible, but you'd risk the old host running away and failing to get into a new host.

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What are the rules for posessing stuff? (dog food? GET OUT!).

I'm thinking that this should be semi-scientific, so that a target has to have a neural structure. Hosts can then be people, animals or biomechanical constructs (like cyborgs or living starships and stations), with different gameplay tradeoffs / costs for each type.

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I have this theory, that the attachment to a game character is related to not only story and interactivity, but to the relative size it usually occupies on-screen.

Very much agreed.

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So to increase attachment you gotta have the posessed resemble the ghost, be it by animation (gestures, pace), voice (check out Matrix Revolutions, Bane's voice after Smith's "posession") or even appearance (you can go wild here, leave the artists to get the right feel for each posessed character).

Okay, I'm actually not worried that you lose identification with your original character just that you lose character identification period. If you don't lock to any character and have to follow that character around, or if you don't have role-playing choice, you lose identification and treat characters as objects.

I want you to identify with your new host. If choosing a host is both an aesthetic and strategic choice, then it will put a burdern on you to choose a character that you can relate to. Families will naturally have an advantage here, btw, as offspring are expected to resemble parents.

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Another thing that was mentioned was capabilities. One relates if the character has human-like capabilities (we're self-centered like that) and one feels 'cool' if one has more capabilities than in real life. Managing to get these two things together is hard, but the rewards are great. Most RPG players start "only human" and progress to be awesome warriors for this very reason.

Good point, and this sort of commoner origin is exactly what I'm now thinking you should have, with in-game options to either keep it or move on.

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Edit: About FPSes... aren't all main characters of FPS games disembodied right arms? Ghostly floating guns? :)

Mostly, but I'm thinking Duke Nukem. It's pretty hard for me to not think of him as a distinct character (crude sensibilities and all).

Story: You and your gf dies in a terrible car accident(you fly out through the window and break your neck). You are given a chance to find out what happened.

Ghost: You can throw objects around at your will (think hl2 grav gun or something like bloodrayne 2 - pick and drag)
You can enable spirit mode, this will loose your spirit-force. Spirit mode is slow-motion. Spirit force is your health. You can get life force by sucking it from alive objects. A ghost basicly looks like a zombie, you are not invisible. All characters see that you are "something" unhuman and attacks you or runs away. This is not true for the first levels when you havent rotten(yummy). Look at the target and press the posess button. Afraid characters can't be possesed.

Possesed: Whith a possesed character you can blend in the crowd. When you control a character you can use their weapons. When inside a character your spirit force is recharaged. You can choose to leave the character at any-time, or posses another. Your possesed character has a "health" that will become your "armor". When it is depleted, your possesed character dies, but you still posses him/her. When lying in a possesed character you can choose to either leave the body or rise it again.

Possed dead character: A dead character provides a few extra gameplays. You get stronger, and get a somewhat altered darker apearence. A more combat oriented interface. Your spirit-force constantly gets lower(to keep the body up-and running) but on the other hand you won't loose spririt-force from shots(like you would in a spirit mode). You can't throw stuff around, but you get unlimited spirit-mode(slow mo) that doesn't draw from spirit-force.