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Original post by Oluseyi Narrative remains secondary to action.

In an RPG? Let me express my COMPLETE disagreement. I guess I can see playing action-RPGs or MMORPGs without a plot (hell, the plots in those are usually just as badly deeloped as in an action game), but in a console-style RPG with turn-based combat, I play for the story.

Story isn't necessary for a good game, but it makes all the difference between a good game and a spectacular one. Deus Ex vs Diablo for example Diablos run of the mill story and engrossing gameplay make for a damn good game, but Deus Exs fantastic storyline and genius gameplay are unbeatable.

I don't mind the whole damsel in distress thing, but I do find more epic and complex stories make a more fun gameplay.

Regarding female lead charactors, how realistic are they? The only ones I can think of are pretty much perfect in every way, while there are many male lead charactors who have charactor flaws... compare Lara Croft or Cate Archer to say, Max Payne or Cloud Strife...

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Original post by Bezben Story isn't necessary for a good game, but it makes all the difference between a good game and a spectacular one. Deus Ex vs Diablo for example Diablos run of the mill story and engrossing gameplay make for a damn good game, but Deus Exs fantastic storyline and genius gameplay are unbeatable. I don't mind the whole damsel in distress thing, but I do find more epic and complex stories make a more fun gameplay. Regarding female lead charactors, how realistic are they? The only ones I can think of are pretty much perfect in every way, while there are many male lead charactors who have charactor flaws... compare Lara Croft or Cate Archer to say, Max Payne or Cloud Strife...

Regarding both this post and the OP, Miluda of Final Fantasy Tactics was a pretty noble character with flaws, though she was neither the lead nor on your team. Then again, now that I think of it, a good portion of the game is spent trying to rescue females in distress (Delita's sister Teta, Princess Ovelia, Ramza's sister Alma).

Maybe it's a universal truth that women are helpless victims, incapable of avoiding obvious traps or outwitting zombies. Like Robin. There's a useless sidekick for you.

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Original post by Oluseyi Of course, the point of rescuing the damsel is not the damsel, but proof of one's own honor and male virileness. It's an ego trip. "I'm so badass I walked into the dragon's lair, bitchslapped his fire-breathing ass and came out with a hottie, to boot! And now she will show her gratitude in very specific ways!"

Hm. If you separate the "needs to be rescued" and the "sexually attractive" traits of the damsel, then it becomes less disturbing. And I can see how it's a convenient way of combining two elements -- motivation for the protagonist and a sexual/romantic subplot. But while I doubt Mario Brothers could have supported a more complex storyline, it seems like a modern RPG would probably benefit from one.

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Original post by Oluseyi The genre as a whole is severely underdeveloped because narrative and plot were tacked on as an excuse for your manipulating your graphic blob just so against other graphic blobs. The saving of princesses as motivation is only the surface - the symptom, not the illness itself.

Point taken. I suppose a better question might have been, why does Dragon Quest VIII play like a first-generation RPG, complete with objects to be stolen out of NPCs' homes without repercussion, random attacks from smiling "Slimes" that drop gold coins when you kill them, and a princess you need to rescue?

The graphics are better, but nobody's bothered to upgrade the gameplay or storytelling... and I doubt that my sister will bother to play the game through.

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Original post by hplus0603 When it comes to girl gamers, it's a myth that girls play fewer games than guys, or spend less time playing games than guys. They are, however, on average, less hard-core about their game playing.

...and as a result, tend to play different games than guys, statistically speaking. I would guess that RPG players are predominantly male. I'd also guess that a properly designed RPG could do very well with women, although it wouldn't look very much like a stereotypical RPG.

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Original post by Bezben Regarding female lead charactors, how realistic are they? The only ones I can think of are pretty much perfect in every way, while there are many male lead charactors who have charactor flaws.

Yeah, that's annoying, too. Real people have flaws, regardless of gender.

As a former Shadowrun DM, I remember this joke (or was it a forum signature ?):

"Is Shadowrun the kind of game where you kill the dragon, rescue the princess and save the world ?"
"It can be but most of the time you'll have to rescue the dragon, kill the princess. Oh, and the world is doomed."

Maybe this is the kind of game you are looking for...

"Rescuing the princess" is an extremely old and traditional narrative element; it's a staple of fairy tales. In Vladimir Propp's classification of folktales, he lists princesses as a separate character type, which he basically defines as a personality-less prize for the hero to win at the end of the adventure. Of course, the character doesn't necessarily have to be a princess; there's a few folktales I've read where a girl has to rescue her younger brother, but the mechanics are the same.

I personally don't have that much problem with the "rescue the girl" model, if it is used as the basis for a relatively simple plot, such as in an action game. With an RPG, it can still be reasonable with enough embellishments (and with some character for the "princess").

I find it a much bigger problem that the Japanese RPG really hasn't progressed that much from the first-gen days. Bland repetetive combat with the same plot elements and cardboard cut-out characters in every game. I quite like the rare game where you play as a female protagonist, purely because she's different from the brightly coloured spikey-haired swordsmen heroes that seem to infest all the other games.

Churlish Knight saving the Princess works better than Butch saving the Effeminent Prince.

The whole princess thing is really just a McGuffin for what would be a standard fantasy quest anyways. Going to slay the Dragon, returning the gold ring back to the river Rhine. It's all roughly the same anyway. Kill a few imps, travel to different countries.

What, save a princess? Yeah, I'll be back with her in a few months.

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Original post by hplus0603the specific skills involved (3D spatial perception, math-based relations, etc)

That is dangerous territory you creep into there. Never assume that there limitations on what a female's mind is capable of. The latest studies show that the greatest differences in male and female brains have to do with the times in which their brains are ready to learn different skills (ie females learn to talk sooner). This does not pose any limits on aptitude.

Also, when people are presented with the oportunity to learn what their minds are ready to recieve, they tend to acheive more.

There are plenty of females who are talented with math, science, and spacial perception. I know of two females personally who are excellent at math. One of them chose accounting when she could have been an engineer (the other is an engineer). That is the affect of modern biases.

As for the thread subject. In most games now, you save the world not just a princess. In Prince of Persia you save yourself while getting beat up by women (at least in the second one, they beat the trash out of me).

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Original post by Yvanhoe "It can be but most of the time you'll have to rescue the dragon, kill the princess. Oh, and the world is doomed."

Heh. Nice. :)

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Original post by Inmate2993 Churlish Knight saving the Princess works better than Butch saving the Effeminent Prince.

C'mon, Cecile and Thomas of Suikoden III are awesome. Not that Thomas is as useless as your typical princess, but still... the roles are definitely reversed, and personally, I was delighted.

That said, there are more possibilities than "he saves her" or "she saves him."

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The whole princess thing is really just a McGuffin for what would be a standard fantasy quest anyways. Going to slay the Dragon, returning the gold ring back to the river Rhine. It's all roughly the same anyway. Kill a few imps, travel to different countries.

Yeah. Yawn. Again... there are other possibilities.

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Original post by T1Oracle There are plenty of females who are talented with math, science, and spacial perception.

Yes, but AFAIK, 3D spatial perception/reasoning is an area where there are statistically significant gender differences. It doesn't mean there aren't women who are better at it than most men... only that men, on average, are somewhat better at it than women, on average. I'm pretty sure that women have the better facial/voice recognition skills, however -- again, on average.