Quote: Original post by Timkin

Quote: Original post by etothex
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Quote: Original post by Thevenin

Quote: Original post by Timkin

Quote: Original post by etothex
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Quote: Original post by Steadtler
I dont see what is the problem, logically or mathematically. First, that the queen (and princess, etc) does not behave like the workers is inconsequential: Only the queen (and the few males) can pass genetic information. Thus anything that doesnt come from each worker's experience or reflexion comes from the queen. The queen is not a worker, but she holds every gene needed to create a worker. Physical or behavioral, it does not matter.

The problem I was reffering to was mutation, not the queen.

How does the queen have genes to form workers, their different behaviors and adaptations to the enviroment to perform worker tasks if the queen never performed as a worker?

The only way I can think this is possible is that the queen, at some earlier point of evolution had to do worker tasks.

At the same time, workers would never be able to adapt themselves to the enviroment but just by the means of mutation (in the workers encoding of queen's DNA).

But as I said earlier, mutation is a tragedy in natural selection. The only reason why mutation works in GA is because the density of population is tricked to be constant, no matter how destructive mutations happen to be. In natural evolution, a negative mutation into vital parts of a creature are mortal for the entire species. And chances of that happening are high because the density of the population and the periods of time for adaptation are finite.

Quote: So, HTF do they evolve?

Surely it is obvious that the worker ants fill out TPS reports detailing their daily encounters and experiences, which are then collected and evaulated by the higher-ups in the colony... didn't you get the memo? [smile]


I tend to think that most "knowledge", other than really basic biological functions, are learned through experience... the only shortcut around this process is to have the knowledge passed on by communication with those who have the experience, be that spoken, written, shown by example, chemical exchange, morse code via antennae, or whatever.

A side note: You could probably even say that stuff like breathing (yes, breathing) is a learned behaviour... when you are born, your body stops receiving oxygen from the placenta, you begin to suffocate and cells begin to die at an accelerated rate (a Bad Thing TM), so your body tries things to rectify the situation... how many babies "evacuate" when they are born... maybe because the system consisting of their body and "mind" is going nuts trying to adapt to the new environment and twitching muscles left, right, and centre. Its something you have to learn over a *very* short space of time, but it can still be regarded as learned.

Anyway, how feasible is it that ants pass on "knowledge" when they bump into other ants? ("hey, there's a giant lump of sugar back there, and as we know from Uncle Fred, sugar is good", or "don't go this way, coz I just saw Jim and Bob get drowned... I hink large amounts of running water are bad... pass it on!")

It doesn't sound right to me that an ant pops out of an egg, and goes "damn, I think I'm off to harvest some grain for the good of our illustrious colony!"... surely there is some form of "basic training" where other ants clue it in on what the hell is going on as it wanders around taking its first steps. Then, as it meanders around the world looking for this "food" thing that someone mentioned, it experiences stuff and finds solutions by experimenting (based on what it knows already), and gets "told" other stuff by other ants who have had their own experiences.

Relating to the lion example, and the concept of "play"... isn't this just experimentation based on stuff the cub has learned so far? (i.e. gravity makes me fall, biting hurts things, clawing hurts things, pouncing can get me over that last distance quicker and catch things by suprise, sneaking helps me get closer without things detecting me, etc) ... I am pretty sure they are not born with much more than the ability to eat, sh!t, and move around, so therefore complex behaviours are not magically passed on by genetics... they must be learned, and the learning begins the moment they are alive and conscious... a rampant sampling of data from the world around them to try and construct a set of rules by which they can evaluate their environment and themselves and predict their future.

Stuff like this just messes my head up when you start reducing it to really basic behaviours [smile]... but it just feels wrong to draw some arbitrary line and say "everything simpler than x is just passed on somehow"... although I guess that must be the case at some cellular level, I feel genetic information has probably got more to do with setting up an organism so that it is biologically efficient and has the capacity to learn well...

Quote: Original post by Bad Monkey
Relating to the lion example, and the concept of "play"... isn't this just experimentation based on stuff the cub has learned so far? (i.e. gravity makes me fall, biting hurts things, clawing hurts things, pouncing can get me over that last distance quicker and catch things by suprise, sneaking helps me get closer without things detecting me, etc) ... I am pretty sure they are not born with much more than the ability to eat, sh!t, and move around, so therefore complex behaviours are not magically passed on by genetics... they must be learned, and the learning begins the moment they are alive and conscious... a rampant sampling of data from the world around them to try and construct a set of rules by which they can evaluate their environment and themselves and predict their future.

Have you ever had a cat, or know someone who had one? I mean, a baby cat that only know to "defecate", eat, and wonder around. When this cat grows up, isn't able to play cat-chasing-games, or hunt birds if you let it in your backyard?

Where did that cat learn to "behave" like a cat? From TV? ;)
Behavior comes imprinted into its DNA, commonly known as instincts.

Human DNA is the equivalent of how many MB?

Quote: Have you ever had a cat, or know someone who had one? I mean, a baby cat that only know to "defecate", eat, and wonder around. When this cat grows up, isn't able to play cat-chasing-games, or hunt birds if you let it in your backyard?

Where did that cat learn to "behave" like a cat? From TV? ;)
Behavior comes imprinted into its DNA, commonly known as instincts.

That's kind of like saying that humans are born with the innate knowledge of how to climb trees and catch frogs [smile]... play is all about trying things out to see the consequences and glean information from the experience. The tendency towards different kinds of play for different species (which may evolve into different survival techniques) can be explained by th differences in how the organism is composed (e.g. lack of hands means climbing things or throwing-catching games are less appealing to a cat).

Take the concept that cats and dogs don't get along... exmaples of that can be seen everywhere... so explain why my cat and my dog play together, and my cat cuddles up with dog to sleep... where's the "imprinted behaviour" reflecting millenia of animosity between the species? I propose that this animosity is not really imprinted behaviour, but information that was learned by each cat and dog as they came across each other and came into conflict over resources such as food and territory/shelter. Remove that conflict and fear, and they get along fine.

Quote: Original post by me22

Quote: Original post by Thevenin

Quote: Original post by Timkin

Quote: Original post by etothex
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Quote: Original post by owl
In natural evolution, a negative mutation into vital parts of a creature are mortal for the entire species.

Why? Why a single bad mutation of one creature is bad for the whole specie?

If the mutation is bad, then it lower the chances of survival of the creatures having it, lowering their competivity, and eventually making the gene disapear. A few creatures doomed, specie goes on.

On the opposite, a good mutation increase the competivity of the individuals having it, increasing the propagation of that gene.

It works in nature (more than in games, imo) because resources are limited and thus only the fittest survives to mate. Doesnt work so much with humanity anymore...

It the basic of evolution, and at the risk of sounding cheezy, its The Origin of Species.

Quote: Original post by GDKnight
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