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Improving Magic: The Gathering

Started by October 06, 2005 02:52 PM
28 comments, last by Iron Chef Carnage 19 years, 4 months ago
I think I'll be making summons a one-shot-per-spell. You'll take a "token of loyalty" which will serve as your link to summon a creature. So, you can only have one creature per token, but it can be re-used in following battles.

I'm not sure how I want to represent other spells, though. I was thinking you could show them as being generic bags of ingredients, but that's especially uninteresting. It would give you an excuse to only use it once per fight, because then you'd have to set it up again after the fight.

I think I have a pretty good idea of what I want to do. Now I just have to figure out how to lay out the engine. I'm going to use C++ for the engine, and python for the scripting, but I have no idea how to use a scripting engine! [smile]

XBox 360 gamertag: templewulf feel free to add me!
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Original post by templewulf
I really what you're doing. Have you ever played Phantom Dust? It sounds a lot like your idea, but it's probably not as good as the one in your head. (What ever is?)

No I haven't, in what ways is it similar? Besides, I've moved away from trying to design action-packed magic duelling FPSes, as there's no way I can do them justice all by myself. I also threw in a few different spells in there that weren't in my original design, as I had six elements (fire, water, air, earth, life/quintessence and "death", although death was a banned and twisted form of "life" that formed the basis of the plot), so healing spell would have definitely been under "life" and not "water". However in my design spells would usually be a combination of these types (i.e. lightning is fire, water and air), although mages had to pick whether they were life or death types (in retrospect, I guess it's a lot like the Force in Star Wars, isn't it?) There's probably heaps of problems with that system, as I never wrote it down to nitpick all the flaws. Anyway, back to your game [smile]

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I did really like your suggestions for water. Especially the transformation and divination ideas, thanks!

In any case, which element would get the psychic spells like Control Magic or Telepathy?


I'm not sure what "void" is meant to represent in your game, so it's possible that it would be appropriate for "control magic". Telepathy can fit into any element, really. If you had an electrical element, I'd pick that (reading the electrical signals in the brain), or a life element (reading auras maybe?). Since these two don't really fit into any one element, I would just design everything else first, then assign these two to whichever element type is weakest in order to balance it out.

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New Question! Do you like the fact that spells can only be used once per battle in M:TG?
I think it's fantastic, because it prevents the kind of battles in most CRPGs, where you're just mashing the X button to get your characters to do their super damage spells as soon as possible. You can only drool over Ultima the first 20 times or so.
Any better ideas?


I like it how spells are both limited and random in card based games, such as Lost Kingdoms, as there's both an element of randomness and strategy in which card to play. Are you still going with a card based system, or is it more on the line of having resources (such as limited reagents, or a spell book as in D&D)?

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I think I have a pretty good idea of what I want to do. Now I just have to figure out how to lay out the engine. I'm going to use C++ for the engine, and python for the scripting, but I have no idea how to use a scripting engine! [smile]

Join the club [grin]. I've got to start work on designing my engine too, and I've got no idea on the best way to use scripting. Although for my game (a space shmup), I might just pass on scripting for now. Best of luck!
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Pertaining to my constant reiteration that the OP should read the "Arena" book. It is a novel, as are all of the books in the "Magic: The Gathering" series of short novels. In past years the books have been written to coincide with the release of each expansion, thus you have a book that kinda, explores the worlds of Magic: The Gathering and delves into some of the new creatures and things in a way that just reading or looking at a card cannot provide. Having read most of them as of about three years ago, they were very good, and as I've said plenty of times already, I would recommend Arena, which was the original, for some research into making this game.

But neither here nor there, let me throw in my two cents as it purtains to re-using spells in combat.

I believe that this will all depend on what type of magical system you are employing. If magic in your game world is ingredient based, then yes, spells would have to be either painfully simple or prepared in advance so that you can use them quickly in combat, however, if the magic system is based on "words of power" or "runes" then I see no applicable reason why the spell might not be able to be re-used in any given combat situation, except in the case of summons where I do think that some sort of token inventory system would be best. Perhaps the player can have a special object that is their little bag of tricks, wherein they keep all of their summons tokens and can have a little quick menu to grab them out and summon forth the fiery Pit Fiend or Avatar of Woe. Who knows?

I saw recently at the local video game store that there is currently a Magic: The Gathering video game in a Fighting/FPS/RPG-ish style. It may be worth looking into for research in how your game can be ported.

Anyway, more of my nonsense,

Vopisk
I remember in Crono Cross, you were limited to how many times you can use a spell of a certain level based on your skill/character level. So, like around lvl 20 the number of times you can use spells of each level may be like 5/3/1 (5 lvl 1 spells, 3 lvl 2, and 1 lvl 3). This counter was reset only after your party rests/sleeps. That's probably another way to limit spell use.

Also, as to physical mana sources and players that may suck and never get any, most RPGs get around stuff like that by having default sources. So, in your adventures, you will visit various villages which may have been built on top or around physical mana sources, which you are guaranteed access to in one form or another. Of course, these won't be the most powerful ones, but they'll usually be enough to get you going. Physical mana sources don't really have to be tied down to land. They can be monuments, statues, a certain tree or rock or just some magical item that has sat around in a place long enough to absorb enough mana from the surrounding environment.
Well, I think I know what I want for now. I'll give a quick summary, and you guys can let me know what you think.

* All creatures (wizards included) have a stamina meter in %. They're available for use once the percent is at 100.

* "prepare spell" is analagous to drawing a card in M:TG. The trick is that the larger your "on hand" spell pool is, the longer it will take to prepare one.

* The caster generates mana for each element equal to his affinity to that element for each clock "tick". That mana can accumulate to some maximum also related to his elemental affinity. I think I'm going to make the magic objects idea periphery; sort of an extra boost alongside the internal mana.

* Summoning Spells (for both items and creatures) can't be reused, but once they're unsummoned you can cast it again.

* Non-summon spells will have a cool-down time as I.C.C. suggested. It'll vary based on the abusable nature of the spell.

* I'm going with a tactical grid layout as opposed to the abstract approach from M:TG. I think that'll just simplify it for when I implement the in-field spell use.


Any final criticism before I begin coding myself to death? [lol]

PS: Thanks a lot to everyone, you've really helped me shape this design!



XBox 360 gamertag: templewulf feel free to add me!
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Original post by templewulf
* "prepare spell" is analagous to drawing a card in M:TG. The trick is that the larger your "on hand" spell pool is, the longer it will take to prepare one.


This has the potential to be a very good game design element. I am assuming that you can choose between having a small pool of spells for quicker casting (but you have less choice about which spell you would cast), or having a large pool of spells for more casting options (but you have to wait longer to cast them).

It could be fantastic, so I'll be keeping an eye out for more news about your game!

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Don't forget some way to peek at your opponent's "hand". That's always n important tactical consideration, especially when facing those blue guys with their endless supply of counterspells.
I was just wondering how well you know Magic, as your desire to separate Water and Wind (although understandable), seems to indicate you don't really see the balance that Richard Garfield has created.
I am a bit worried that by trying to take the various elements that were covered in Magic, and trying to make them fit in a classic 4 elements scheme, you are digging your own grave before you even start (because, for instance, where would you put a Lightning ball, since surely it is of Air as much as it is of Fire).
Not trying to be annoying or anything, I am just curious.
Blue isn't about Air and Water, it's about Meta-magic, about bypassing enemy defense (Diplomatic immunity, islandwalk, flight) and other "cheating/thieving" abilities. This matches with the fluid and unpredictable nature of Air and Water, but as a side effect, not as the prime motivation.

Hope this helps?
-----------------------------Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !
Thanks for all of your support, everybody. I think I've got my design down. Now I just have to make my pre-alpha engine not leak memory all over my carpet!

@ahw:
I know, I know! The 5 colors of magic are pretty good, but I still don't like 'em! Wizards of the Coast keeps saying that White != Good && Black != Evil, but the cards clearly don't reflect that!

Additionally, I think the classical Greek/Hindu/Japanese elements are not only more my style, but also help to differentiate my game design from a complete magic ripoff.

Your question is an excellent one, because separating the nature of Air and Water is one of the design elements I'm having the most trouble with. I'm digging into the neo-pagan BS for my game. (I love ancient Celtic mythology, and I know the New Wicca is totally made up by Gardner.)

You sound pretty knowledgeable about the M:TG "color wheel". What do you think would characterize Air as opposed to Water?

P.S. I'm putting lightning on hold for a moment. I wanted to give it to Air, because Air's color is yellow, but Lightning is generated by Water friction. On top of that, its chaotic nature marks it as a Red spell.
XBox 360 gamertag: templewulf feel free to add me!
How about the alchemical treatment of elements, where phenomena don't fall into the scope of an element, but rather result from the interaction of one or more substances? Lightning might be generated by getting a foundation of air, mixing in a little water and earth, and then applyi8ng fire to the water to get it to vaporize. Clouds, ground and atmosphere are the natural habitat of lightning. A magma ball could be formed by taking a unit of earth and overcharging it with fire. Earth, fire and air make sand, a little more fire gets glass, etc.

Treat the effects and events as results of recipies. You won't have a two- or three-color deck, like in MTG, and you won't have to limit yourself to two or three types of mana. Your character will be carrying all three around as his proficiency allows, and so having a spell that calls for a touch of the other colors won't hurt you as badly as the multicolor cards did in Magic.

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