Whoops; trawling through my private messages I found that TechnoGoth had in fact PMed me back saying that my entry was 4 pages long, but for some reason the link that tells me how many private messages I had didn't register it (it said I had no new messages). That's pretty embarrassing; if I'd known about that before the deadline I'd have made some cuts.

[attention][attention][attention]If anyone is reading this before they've read my entry (entry 8), please disregard all of the background history when making your decision, so that's it's of a fairer length.[attention][attention][attention]

I honestly do not mind if my entry for this round is removed from the competition, but as sunandshadow says it does produce some irregularities with the voting. Frankly I'd feel a bit uneasy if the character from my entry were to continue on to the next round now. I'll leave it up to TechnoGoth to decide, since it's his competition, and I take full responsibility for not double-checking the length of the entry. I'll also respect his decision no matter what it is.

Edit: Made the message a bit more stand out.

[Edited by - Trapper Zoid on October 4, 2005 11:06:25 PM]

Re: weaknesses of the contestants

The contest exposed weaknesses of the contestants. Therefore I suggested that the voting system to be changed to prevent the contestants from being weak. To be precise, I was saying this based on the fact that only GOR-GOR congratulated 5MG for winning Round 1. Not even you congratulated him. That is a flaw of the contest. And I think that it can be changed by changing the voting system.


I would like to suggest a change in the voting system so that every participant will happily and sincerely congratulate the winner of the contest. I believe that given the small number of voters, a full voting system is just and beneficial. Not only will it encourage the participants to see their own entries objectively, it will also eliminate the mathematical errors due to ununiform votes.


Re: Clicheness

Quote:

I'm not talking about scoring or ranking. I am asking what you think the cause of this phenomenon of universal clicheness is. I am puzzled by it.

There is no excuse for clicheness. There are only two explanations: The contestants didn't try to be creative, or failed to be creative. In my case, I just tried what 5MG did and wrote it right before the deadline. I submitted it an hour too early, and formatted it in the next hour.

For this round, the clicheness is mainly caused by the restriction of the theme. People were trying to write something that fits the theme. If we want to have a legitimate writing competition, than the host needs to specify the exact requirements. For example, if it was a contest on character profile, the host could provide the alpha, and the contestants compete on improving the alpha. For example, the host could start with a character picture, and everyone can profile the character. This is the usual way how writing competitions work.


Re: Vague rules

Quote:

Quote: I said E8 can be disqualifed. TechnoGoth said he would have to read it in order to decide. I said it was unnecessary because if the content can waive a piece from disqualification, then what is the point of having rules? How many times do I have to say that in my opinion the rule wasn't clearly definied and thus is dysfunctional? It's TechnoGoth's call whether to disqualify the entry or not, but you asked me for whatever reason, and my personal opinion is that the entry should not be disqualified.

Rules like page count are understood as rules based on commonsense. You said that because the rule wasn't clearly defined thus is dysfunctional. I was objecting that viewpoint. The rule wasn't dysfunctional. It was a completely reasonable rule. Your personal reason was based on a wrong ideology. Rules come in different kinds, rules like this requires common sense. Yes they are fuzzy, but they are applicable. They aren't dysfunctional. In my opinion, the length was far beyong TechnoGoth's call. It isn't the responsibility of the judge to give margins to the contestants, it is the contestants's job to understand the responsibilities. Trapper Zoid understood the requirement, and broke it by far due to the circumstances. You said that if you were a judge you would not disqualify it. Then how long would it need to be before you would disqualify it? given the circumstances that you had a rule on page count.

It didn't occur to you that letting someone trim the entry down to fit the requirement, yet allowing this one to be well over two page to be unfair? It is an unjust decision in the context of running a contest.

If you understand my motivation, I am trying to weed out the problems. In my opinion, the requirement based on page was reasonable. This means that the contest needs to demonstrate how it is applied. E8 went over by not just a little bit. Given that even TechnoGoth sent an PM, you should understand that it should be disqualified because the author had given too little time and effort to honor the requirements.

---

Quote:

You are not open to criticism of your work, yet you expect us to just accept your criticism of ours? If you go around saying that our arguments are nonsense and we are defending against nothing, you must not have much respect for us as intelligent adults who have logical reasons for our opinions. And if you don't respect us and aren't open to learning from our criticism, why the heck are you here? This is a dialectic community for the purpose of helping each other become better writers. Let me emphasize that word COMMUNITY. If you think people can objectively critique themselves, perhaps you should start by critiquing yourself as a community member. If you want to help people by giving them advice, you need to keep in mind that people never take advice from someone they're mad at and phrase your advice a bit more diplomatically.

I speak up because I respect the intelligence of this community. In my opinion you guys were insulting the community. Why did no almost no one congratulated 5MG? Are we being diplomatic? Is that the kind of community you want? Why didn't you congratulate 5MG? How does that work as a community member? Do you see that the so-called dialectic community is not operating based on respect? It is operating based on the fear to lose 'respect':

Quote:

Don't forget that if TechnoGoth thinks you are damaging the contest he can ban you from entering future rounds.

Ideologies and paradigms. The way you think and behave don't convince me that you are aimming for a dialectic community. A dialectic community has no fear to exchange logical arguments. If you want a dialectic community, you can't be weak on the receiving end. Live up to the level of logics you expect.

---

By the way, I totally missed this:

Quote:

I think that we will do the popular voting a little different this round. People have until 12:01 GMT October 5th to submit what they think are the top 3 entries.

Now I don't know how to interpret everything that I had said. I didn't know that the voting system changed. Because I didn't expect myself to be voting. Now I just need to think about it all over. How could TechnoGoth just change that without any warning?

I guess it is okay to just try it, but the 'top three' voting system that I suggested assume that everyone could vote for every entry. That was the reason why there were 3 votes (so that even if you voted yourself, you still have to vote two other more).

I wonder if Estok get's so constipated over everything in life, or just writing contests. :|

Relax, man. If this contest were for cash, or something more substantial than fun and respect, I'd understand how absolutely nuts you're going.

Quote:

Original post by Estok Re: weaknesses of the contestants The contest exposed weaknesses of the contestants. Therefore I suggested that the voting system to be changed to prevent the contestants from being weak. To be precise, I was saying this based on the fact that only GOR-GOR congratulated 5MG for winning Round 1. Not even you congratulated him. That is a flaw of the contest. And I think that it can be changed by changing the voting system. I would like to suggest a change in the voting system so that every participant will happily and sincerely congratulate the winner of the contest. I believe that given the small number of voters, a full voting system is just and beneficial. Not only will it encourage the participants to see their own entries objectively, it will also eliminate the mathematical errors due to ununiform votes.

Estok, your logic is flawed because you fail to accurately understand the purpose of the contest as well as acknowledge that people do not spend their entire lives on these forums, thus there are possible explanations about why I wasn't congradulated by everyone. I accept that they perhaps did not feel I needed to be congradulated or that winning the contest in itself was enough of a congradulations. There are many more explanations that are understood by people who actually have common sense. I forgive those who did not congradulate me and I don't need to say that because it is understood.

Quote:

Re: Clicheness ... There is no excuse for clicheness. There are only two explanations: The contestants didn't try to be creative, or failed to be creative. In my case, I just tried what 5MG did and wrote it right before the deadline. I submitted it an hour too early, and formatted it in the next hour. For this round, the clicheness is mainly caused by the restriction of the theme. People were trying to write something that fits the theme. If we want to have a legitimate writing competition, than the host needs to specify the exact requirements. For example, if it was a contest on character profile, the host could provide the alpha, and the contestants compete on improving the alpha. For example, the host could start with a character picture, and everyone can profile the character. This is the usual way how writing competitions work.

Your assumption about the time that I wrote the entry and when it was submitted are inaccurate. I wrote my entry in 20 minutes perhaps even less I did not keep an exact time but know it was no more than 20 minutes. I wrote it on Tuesday and did not submit it till Thursday iirc. Therefore you are wrong Estok you did not do what I did. I also said that I reread mine and revised mine three times before submitting it. And to maximize my efforts I waited a day before starting my revision.

Quote:

Re: Vague rules ... Rules like page count are understood as rules based on commonsense. You said that because the rule wasn't clearly defined thus is dysfunctional. I was objecting that viewpoint. The rule wasn't dysfunctional. It was a completely reasonable rule. Your personal reason was based on a wrong ideology. Rules come in different kinds, rules like this requires common sense. Yes they are fuzzy, but they are applicable. They aren't dysfunctional. In my opinion, the length was far beyong TechnoGoth's call. It isn't the responsibility of the judge to give margins to the contestants, it is the contestants's job to understand the responsibilities. Trapper Zoid understood the requirement, and broke it by far due to the circumstances. You said that if you were a judge you would not disqualify it. Then how long would it need to be before you would disqualify it? given the circumstances that you had a rule on page count. It didn't occur to you that letting someone trim the entry down to fit the requirement, yet allowing this one to be well over two page to be unfair? It is an unjust decision in the context of running a contest.

You are wrong on many counts in the above. The rules in the contest and rulings on those rules are solely the responsiblity of the judge. The interpretation of those rules is a responsiblity of the contestant, yes, but whether or not the entry is accepted for voting is up to the host of the contest. I believe in a formal competition there would be a screening process in which entries would be accepted, rejected, or in need of discussion. I believe that TechnoGoth did not explicit seek nor want to hear our opinions on the matter of the whether or not Entry 8 was to be rejected. And I think that we should so some respect and stop bickering over something that is not our responsiblity. If you do not understand the rules of the competition which it is your repsonsibility as a contestant then you should ask the host what was meant by the page limit. The rules that are posted are not a legal document, Estok, thus you should not interpret them as such. You should try to understand that any inconsistencies in them should be addressed to TechnoGoth who originally posted them and attempt to work out your concerns the rest of the contestants should not be concerned as to whether Entry 8 is too long nor should they be concerned about any entry other than their own. If you feel that Trapper Zoid did not understand the rules then keep it to yourself it is not your responsiblity to explain them to him. It is also not up to you to say anything about his character because he made a descision to enter the full entry.

Quote:

... Ideologies and paradigms. The way you think and behave don't convince me that you are aimming for a dialectic community. A dialectic community has no fear to exchange logical arguments. If you want a dialectic community, you can't be weak on the receiving end. Live up to the level of logics you expect. By the way, I totally missed this: ... Now I don't know how to interpret everything that I had said. I didn't know that the voting system changed. Because I didn't expect myself to be voting. Now I just need to think about it all over. How could TechnoGoth just change that without any warning? I guess it is okay to just try it, but the 'top three' voting system that I suggested assume that everyone could vote for every entry. That was the reason why there were 3 votes (so that even if you voted yourself, you still have to vote two other more).

Estok, the whole point of a community is to be able to experience other peoples points of view. I'm not sure where you drudged up the dialectic community idea from but I don't think that arguing about things whether rational or irrational is a justified method of improvement especially in a gaming industry. In addition you sound like you are the judge of whether the community is fulfilling its goal and that you personally have to set people right. Your crusade to do so is leaving an aweful impression of yourself and what you are expecting from this community is disgusting. We all could argue with you until we have exhausted ever possible means of trying to communicate to you that you need to relax and drop the argumentative attitude. Do not continue to look at things with a mathematical percision that each and every word counts as law but rather allow your common sense to fill in the blanks which are left by human error. We are all equal and you seem to be attempting to rank everyone and play the game of who is better than whom. We each have our strengths and weaknesses but if you attempt to exploit our weakness rather than our strengths by arguing, it solves and acheives nothing.

You are not a very good listener, are you Estok, you do not see underlined or hinted meaning, you can't read between the lines and don't give people credit where credit is due. You seek to be the judge of others which is not your place. When I want criticism I want something constructive and some that sounds as an appealing alternative, some advice in an uplifting tone, and possible a kind word on something done right. Stop writing like a lawyer looking for flaws and start writing like a human being with compassion. You also seem to demand an explaination for everything that is said which defies a narrow ideology which you are imposing on everyone. People won't say things in exactly the same manner or with the same ability to communicate but it does not mean that you cannot understand what they are saying. Why don't you try harder to understand what people are saying and argue less.

And no doubt you will attempt to reply to this post where you misinterpret every single word herein. I suggest that you just read it and not reply with anything whatsoever because I will be forced to ignore you entirely.

Cliches are not necessarily a bad thing. Good execution is most important.

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who's a neophyte at creative writing and drama studies. It could be good to work within established forms and techniques.

Gladiator is full of cliches, hell, Hollywood is mostly using cliches, reusing ad nauseam the archetypes that have proved succesful in the past.
Obviously if we start with a background theme like "Revenge", and most of us are infected by Hollywood's memes, we are gonna turn out a lot of similar stuff.
It's not like a lot of us have read Musset's Lorrenzaccio (I am trying to think of an equivalent in English... mmmh, maybe Othello's "friend", Iago, although he is not as weak and powerless as Lorrenzaccio. Simply lookup Lorenzo de Medicis, he was a real life character.)

It's not the cliches, it's how you use them...

Quote:

by Trapper Zoid And please Estok could you stop insulting people? You are spoiling the mood of this whole competition with your present manner.

Are you implying you are not having fun, soldier? *pulls out gun, unlocks safety*
LMAO :-D
But seriously, Estok, you need to chill out, man. You are being, what would be a accurate word for it... uncaring of other people's feelings? You show a lack of empathy? Something like that. Not nice, you know?

We might have to shoot you down, too, for not conveying joy and happiness to this thread! [grin]

What exactly is cliche about the characters?

ahw has a point.

If you're not enjoying it, you're disqualified.

I've had the chance to get some sleep, so my thinking is now back to normal (well, as normal as it gets for me [grin])

Firstly, I'd like to apologise to Estok; it is unprofessional for me to lose my cool when writing a post for any reason, and I regret doing so. I will try my best to not let it happen again.

However, Estok, you really do need to work on your manner of offering advice and on critiquing other people. As sunandshadow wrote, people are much more likely to listen to someone who is nice and respects other people's feelings and points of view. Nearly everyone I've seen on GameDev.Net follows this advice. However, while I have had many people critique, argue and in some cases just plain riddicule my ideas, you are the first person on these forums who has insulted me. That means I am already on the defensive with everything you write, and I am much less likely to listen to any advice you have on improving my writing skills.

And although now I am pretty confident these days and can take a huge amount of flak directed at my ideas or myself, if this was the decade-younger teenage me, extremely shy and insecure of myself, there is no way I would enter this friendly writing competition knowing the manner in which you reply to posts here. This isn't conductive to the generally friendly atmosphere here at GameDev.Net that is the main reason why I'm here.

I made a vow to be kind, patient and understanding to anyone who wishes to learn, so I'll try to be nice and give you another chance to be a constructive member of the community. It's almost time to discuss this round's entries and I'd like to learn more about how to be a better writer, so I would like the discussion to be positive.

Quote:

Original post by ahw Are you implying you are not having fun, soldier? *pulls out gun, unlocks safety* LMAO :-D

Seriously though, this is the whole point. I'm actually having second thoughts about entering in the third round, and that's purely because although I had a lot of fun writing my piece for this round, I'm not sure whether this whole debacle has spoilt the mood.

Ah, I'll probably get over it by the time the next round starts anyway [grin]

Edit: Typos again, and fixing up the words a bit.

[Edited by - Trapper Zoid on October 5, 2005 6:19:03 PM]