I'm having trouble deciding how to let the player choose what equipment to arm themself with. I've thinking of giving them four variations, but I'm not sure how to make these variations work. Let me see if I can make sense of this. Here are the types of weapons a single character can be carrying at one time: 1) Big swords, bows, quarterstaffs and other large two handed weapons all go on the back, and only one of this type of object can be carried at a time. 2) Small swords, clubs, maces, and other small arms go on the side of the hip, but one can be carried on each side. 3) Small daggers and other small thrown projectiles are hidden and can be equipped along with any other gear, but only one hidden weapon at a time. 4) Shields go on the back and one can be carried at a time. 5) Arrow quivers also go on the back, but have very little effect on the problem at hand. Here are the 'types' of weapon wielding postures that could be available with certain configurations. 1) Bow & Arrow. Could be classified as 2-Handed. 2) 2-Handed. Simple as that. A large weapon that uses both hands. 3) 1-Handed. A single short sword, club, mace, pistol, smg, whatever. 4) Dual. 1-Handed weapon in each hand. 5) 1-Handed & Shield. Shield with a 1-handed weapon. 6) Unarmed. Bare handed. 7) Concealed. Arming concealed daggers or such. A character could be equipped with, simultaniously, enough equipment to allow arming as all six (1 and 2 are very similar) of these configurations. For a mental picture, imagine a great sword and shield strapped to the back, two short swords on the side, and a dagger concealed. All of the above, other than #1, are possible to arm. Errm, here's a real picture instead of the mental one: So what I'm trying to do is allow the player to choose what to pull out and arm. I want to fit the choices onto four keys/buttons or less. This is what I'm currently thinking of doing. These buttons arm the equipment in a priority type setup. If the first setup is not available, it will try the second, and so on: Button 1: One handed and shield, one handed, two handed Button 2: Bow & Arrow, two handed, concealed Button 3: Dual, concealed, one handed Button 4: Unarmed (always available) So as you can see, it would be impossible to arm a one handed weapon without arming a shield if you were carrying two side arms. Wielding a one handed weapon without a shield is very different than with a shield, so it would be great to allow them to use either. I'm looking for ideas or suggestions on how to improve or redesign this. Let me know if more information is needed. Thanks much.

I can't imagine what it would be like with all that stuff strapped on. :|

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Original post by GOR-GOR I can't imagine what it would be like with all that stuff strapped on. :|

That configuration only totals about 16 pounds. I can carry 16 pounds in my pocket :P

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Original post by Kest Quote: Original post by GOR-GOR I can't imagine what it would be like with all that stuff strapped on. :| That configuration only totals about 16 pounds. I can carry 16 pounds in my pocket :P

Just curious, how big are your pockets? Even 16 pounds of lead is pretty darned big.

I wouldn't make too many bets on how long your pockets would last with 16 pounds in them.

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Original post by solinear Just curious, how big are your pockets? Even 16 pounds of lead is pretty darned big. I wouldn't make too many bets on how long your pockets would last with 16 pounds in them.

I was referring to carrying 16 pounds anchored onto one spot. But I still appreciate your helpful facts :D

Take a look at Doom or Half Life. Those guys can carry seven types of guns with ease. I'm wanting nearly the same functionality for the same reasons.

The player doesn't have to carry anything they don't want to carry. And they will have trouble carrying more than their muscles will support. Even with that, every one pound subtracts some from agility, depending on strength.

Thanks again :)

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Original post by Kest I'm having trouble deciding how to let the player choose what equipment to arm themself with. I've thinking of giving them four variations, but I'm not sure how to make these variations work. (snip) Button 1: One handed and shield, one handed, two handed Button 2: Bow & Arrow, two handed, concealed Button 3: Dual, concealed, one handed Button 4: Unarmed (always available)

Quick question; will it work if you allow combinations of buttons for one handed with no shield, such as button 1 and 4 at the same time?

Or you could make holding the button for different lengths of time do different things.

I'm not sure about the other controls in your game, so I don't know if these would work.

You've got four "zones" on your person in which things can be carried--your back, each hip, and the invisible pocket/sleeve. Why not bind controls to those? This way, complex configurations can be built from components.

The only problem is that you have multiple things on your back, but I think I can get around this, although you might not like how I do it.

For the sake of this example, I'll use 1, 2, 3 and 4 to represent the buttons. 1 is your back, 2 is your right hip, 3 is your left hip, and 4 is your sleeve.

Here's how it would work out with each of your settings:

1) Bow & Arrow. Could be classified as 2-Handed.
2) 2-Handed. Simple as that. A large weapon that uses both hands.

Press 1 twice. Since there are two different things on your back (shield and 2-handed weapon) it is necessary to give this button dual functionality. 2 clicks for two hands.

3) 1-Handed. A single short sword, club, mace, pistol, smg, whatever.

Just hit either 2 or 3, depending on which one you want.

4) Dual. 1-Handed weapon in each hand.

Hit both 2 and 3, either simultaneously or whenever you want to get the other one out. This is nice because you can have your number two weapon (say a rapier) out and working, and draw number 3 (a main gauche, perhaps) on the fly

5) 1-Handed & Shield. Shield with a 1-handed weapon.

Hit 1 for the shield and either 2 or 3 for the weapon. Again, you can get the shield out whie the weapon is out, or vice versa.

6) Unarmed. Bare handed.

This is tough. I'd say double-tap 4, since it'll be the least used of the buttons.

7) Concealed. Arming concealed daggers or such.

Just click 4. You could even get out your shield or another one-handed weapon, if that was appropriate, by using 1, 2 or 3 at the same time.

Switching to unarmed is the one that annoys me the most. I don't think I can do better than this tonight, though. Good luck. I like the screenshot, and look forward to more updates.

One last note, isn't that shield a little high on his back? You don't want him whacking his head against it.

[Edited by - Iron Chef Carnage on September 17, 2005 9:09:08 PM]

Well, assuming you're not going for realism (since a the equipment you described would be well over 100 pounds), then why does it really matter? For game graphics? I assume as well. Well, that's really a moot point as the graphic don't really have to show anything but the player holstering one item and equipping another.

However, consider the fact that most "decently" sized shields, that is, non-bucklers were close to 50-60 pounds by themselves (my numbers may be slightly off) however, a full-blown "bastard" or "great" sword would easily weigh in at close to 100 pounds themselves again, a club you're looking at at least 20 pounds to be any sort of effective in combat and your average handgun is 2-3 pounds. Considering all of this, oh yeah, most rifles I've held weigh anything from 20-40 pounds considering the gun.

Anyway, who are these super-mutants that are walking around with all of this stuff at once?! The reason people in Quake, Doom, Half-life, ad infinitum can all walk around carrying 800 super weapons is because the game programmers scrapped realism for the sake of allowing someone to fire a grenade launcher right after they just shoved their sniper rilfe up their (*censored*)... Forgot this is a family show we're running.

Finally, I don't know why you would want to bind all that functionality into a mere four buttons, why not use the 1-9 classical approach that the games you mentioned in your OP use? 1 - sidearm, 2 - dual wielded handgun, 3 - bow and arrow, etc...?

This way you could specifically address or assign a button to your shield so that you don't have to unstrap your shield to get to your other sidearm, etc... Anyway, those are my thoughts, something to chew on.

Vopisk

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Original post by Iron Chef Carnage You've got four "zones" on your person in which things can be carried--your back, each hip, and the invisible pocket/sleeve. Why not bind controls to those? This way, complex configurations can be built from components.

I really like this idea. In a way, it doesn't work. But you've made me realize something that I can do to make it work. Currently, there are only two actions required outside of combat. Action, and jump. There are seven actions required during combat. Jump, guard, four attacks, and a way to end combat. I'm wanting to fit this game's controls onto a gamepad, so the fewer the better. That means the player would have room for five or so actions. They are not required to have that many buttons (explained why below), but should be capable of communicating the action in some way. The problem is that these extra actions are only available outside of combat. And combat is started by pulling out weapons. I'm sorry I didn't explain this in more detail.

Anyway, the input configuration is very flexible. The player can map actions to things like hold(Shift) + Up, Up. Or even something crazy like hold(X+C)+L. I don't know why I didn't see it before, but I could allow them to stow or arm weapons with a single button. Hold(Button) + up for the back, +left or +right for the sides, and +down for concealed. Maybe unarmed could be chosen by simply pressing the button and releasing without pressing directions. Of course the player could do what they want. They could map +down to the shield instead of concealed. Concealed weapons would most likely only be used when not carrying any other weapons. Their primary purpose is to act as a last resort backup weapon, or to hide the fact that any weapons are being carried at all.

Any opinion on this? I have no idea what keys are allowed to be pressed simultaneously on a keyboard. So the player may have trouble mapping certain keys as the "equip" key. I'll have to test that out. Anyway, thanks again for the great idea.

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Original post by Vopisk Well, assuming you're not going for realism (since a the equipment you described would be well over 100 pounds),

Metals may vary, but some short swords weigh less than 2 pounds. Big swords can be as light as 6 or 7 pounds. And shields can weigh as little as 8 pounds. Here's a shield made with 20 gauge steel, only weighing 9. I've done lots of research. Have you? I can give you more links if you want.

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then why does it really matter? For game graphics? I assume as well. Well, that's really a moot point as the graphic don't really have to show anything but the player holstering one item and equipping another.

I don't really follow you. This has nothing to do with graphics. They have these things equipped and ready for combat. If you're referring to why I have them visible on his body, that has very little to do with the problem at hand. But to answer your question, it's much more than being about graphics. You're telling me you don't care what your enemy is about to fight you with? You'd prefer them to be allowed to hide a 54 inch sword in their magical pocket?

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However, consider the fact that most "decently" sized shields, that is, non-bucklers were close to 50-60 pounds by themselves (my numbers may be slightly off)

Damn, a 50 pound shield would be nearly worthless. I mean unless you're planning on resting it on the ground.

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however, a full-blown "bastard" or "great" sword would easily weigh in at close to 100 pounds themselves again

A 100 pound sword. That's pretty interesting. Could you wield a 100 pound sword? How about after several months of increasing muscle mass? If so, you could kick my ass without much trouble. I can barely imagine a 50 pound sword being effective.

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a club you're looking at at least 20 pounds to be any sort of effective in combat

Broom handles are effective in combat, if struck in the face :P

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Anyway, who are these super-mutants that are walking around with all of this stuff at once?!

The characters are beafed a little. It's pretty far in the future, and DNA has freaked a bit. Character growth potential is much higher than traditional RPGs. But if you're really freak'n strong, you can hurt someone just as much with a 6 pound sword as with a 50 pound sword. The weight only helps because of the impact needed to stop the velocity. So that strength is reserved for much cooler purposes.

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Finally, I don't know why you would want to bind all that functionality into a mere four buttons, why not use the 1-9 classical approach that the games you mentioned in your OP use? 1 - sidearm, 2 - dual wielded handgun, 3 - bow and arrow, etc...?

Gamepads. It's very action oriented, and a gamepad is not required, but definitely recommended.

[smile]

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Original post by Iron Chef Carnage Good luck. I like the screenshot, and look forward to more updates.

Thanks for that. You can see some older shots on my site.

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One last note, isn't that shield a little high on his back? You don't want him whacking his head against it.

Here's a better view:


He has a pretty decent space for backward head movement. I was more afraid of where it might go if he bends back too far :)

[Edited by - Kest on September 17, 2005 11:17:44 PM]

Following your link and doing some rudimentary research, I stand corrected. Although I would still believe that a full-equipment would weigh more than 16 pounds. However, somewhere in the 20-pound region would not seem to be so unrealistic at all.

Reading a particular article gave me insight into why there is common misconception about weapon weights. A good essay on the matter can be found here for the "woefully ignorant general public" such as myself:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm

Anyway, understanding now that you want to compress the application down to work on a controller makes more sense why the limitation on the amount of buttons, however, I don't have the experience with dealing with controllers in programming to know what keypress combinations would be possible to solve the problem, however, I would stick with the 1-9 paradigm for keyboard users, as it is commonly used and familiar to most gamers.

My question regarding the graphical implementation would refer to I suppose, the point of view of the camera, that is, if you're in a roving 3rd-person perspective, you're going to have to show the back-sword being sheathed before the player can draw out his hip-sword/mace, which presents a lot more modelling than a standard FPS which would enable a quick swapping out of weapons. However, it's entirely plausible and my point was probably the moot one, since I have a tendency to ramble and lose myself.

Once again for the sake of realism however, I ask, is it feasible to have both a "great sword", bow and shield all strapped to your back and can you quickly and accurately use each one? Or would the player have to settle for just the shield and forego the sword and bow strapped across their back to have a plausible system? This would allow for only one type of back item, one type of item for each hip and a "concealed" weapon category, possibly solving your button problem. That is, a quiver, while worn, does not need to be equipped, a bow is obviously two handed and therefore nothing else can be worn/wielded, so as soon as you draw your bow, you must empty all other hands and can use nothing else. However, it is easy to press button one and draw your "primary hand" weapon, then press either your off-hand hip button or your back button to draw out your shield. A two-handed sword strapped across the back would have the same effect.

Unarmed combat could be solved via a double-press or combination press using the "concealed" weapon category, allowing the player to be fighting bare fisticuffs and quickly draw the dagger concealed in their sleeve or just as quickly tuck it back under their belt and go back to raw hand-to-hand.

Anyway, armed with my newfound knowledge, I'm off to spread more discord and chaos.

Vopisk