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Original post by Siolis That’s pretty spurious thinking. You know nothing about me, my design or my game except that it is based on the real world idea of mining and your willing to wager that my dream mine is full of crates and spiders and that my idea of a super cool mining sim is something you would play to cure insomnia. Tell me, do you design games, would like me to pass judgement while your still building it or do you even play games? I play quality computer games like metal gear solid, final fantasy, zone of the enders, ma-friggin-rio ffs, if you have ever played any best selling or otherwise quality game there’s a good dam chance I have too so if I designed a game based on what I know to be quality of computer games, doesn’t it make sense to you that it wont be total shit. Ya think, maybe there’s a chance that a hard core games player might be able to at least design some kind of descent game? But wait, you can’t really answer that can you, you know nothing about me or my design!

Sorry I wasn't clear, I wasn't commenting on your idea for a standalone mining sim. I meant to say your idea of adding a detailed mining sim to WoW sounds like the height of boredom and makes little sense to me.

However you have given me enough details of your theoretical standalone mining game for me to say: it sounds boring. So has every other mining sim description I've seen in this thread. I guess I'm not the target market.

As for your list of "quality" games, it's completely irrelevant. Playing good games doesn't make you a good game designer (not that I even agree that the games you listed are that great). If it did we'd have thousands of brilliantly designed games by thousands of different brilliant designers because everyone plays good games. Plus you listed a bunch of console games while the focus of this thread has been MMORPGs which are primarily on PC. And games are games are games, but we both know console games are not PC games.

The whole spider/crate thing was obviously facetious. Don't take yourself so damn seriously.

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Original post by Siolis I’m aware of that but as I’ve said some where in the Ball Park of realism. To me and a few other people from the north of the UK *Cough*York*Cough* mining means going underground with machines and pick axes. FYI i know all about how to mine and how they do it, the method you described in a medieval method of getting iron, they don’t do that anymore, they dig, in quarries sometimes, in grate holes in the ground the rest of the time. ¬_¬

So wait, your complaint boils down to, the game set in "medieval+magic" settings has the mining mini-game quite closely resemble _medieval_ way of mining, as opposed to what present-day UK lad from York might do... and having that medieval way of mining in medieval settings, as opposed to having modern way of mining in medieval setting... is "unrealistic", out of all things?

The mind boggles, tbh.

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Original post by Dobbs Quote: Original post by Siolis That’s pretty spurious thinking. You know nothing about me, my design or my game except that it is based on the real world idea of mining and your willing to wager that my dream mine is full of crates and spiders and that my idea of a super cool mining sim is something you would play to cure insomnia. Tell me, do you design games, would like me to pass judgement while your still building it or do you even play games? I play quality computer games like metal gear solid, final fantasy, zone of the enders, ma-friggin-rio ffs, if you have ever played any best selling or otherwise quality game there’s a good dam chance I have too so if I designed a game based on what I know to be quality of computer games, doesn’t it make sense to you that it wont be total shit. Ya think, maybe there’s a chance that a hard core games player might be able to at least design some kind of descent game? But wait, you can’t really answer that can you, you know nothing about me or my design! Sorry I wasn't clear, I wasn't commenting on your idea for a standalone mining sim. I meant to say your idea of adding a detailed mining sim to WoW sounds like the height of boredom and makes little sense to me. However you have given me enough details of your theoretical standalone mining game for me to say: it sounds boring. So has every other mining sim description I've seen in this thread. I guess I'm not the target market. As for your list of "quality" games, it's completely irrelevant. Playing good games doesn't make you a good game designer (not that I even agree that the games you listed are that great). If it did we'd have thousands of brilliantly designed games by thousands of different brilliant designers because everyone plays good games. Plus you listed a bunch of console games while the focus of this thread has been MMORPGs which are primarily on PC. And games are games are games, but we both know console games are not PC games. The whole spider/crate thing was obviously facetious. Don't take yourself so damn seriously.

Well i meant that in wow they should have made a good attempt at a mining sim because they of all people could have done so but ok, i said before but as people have a really good habit of not reading earlier posts ill say again, i grant you that WOW's mining system suits the game due to it being an MMORPG, BUT in an RPG i would make of that caliber i believe a good mining system equal in Gameplay value to that of the RPG elements would be best. A kind of hybrid of RPGing, Mining, Hunting etc instead of an RPG with small sub games of mining, hunting etc.

Err, I’ve told you shit all about my mining game, i mealy plucked ideas from the air in the closing moments of a two hour, musicless collage spreadsheet lesson. My game in all its detailed glory is sitting on this PC (my home PC) and wont be posted on this forum in full, bits and pieces yes, but what I’ve said is random ideas, don’t think you know me or my game man.

I play quality computer games like metal gear solid, final fantasy, zone of the enders, ma-friggin-rio ffs, if you have ever played any best selling or otherwise quality game there’s a good dam chance I have too...

You don’t read too well do you? It was a generalization, the examples are my personal faves the bold line is the generalization that if you have ever played any game considered by general opinion to be quality than I’ve probably played it to your comment was irrelevant. Finally, it doesn’t matter what the game is, whose played it, designed it or anything else, the fact is I’ve played widely liked gamed, I’m assuming you may have played at least one game a lot of other people liked and there in the parts of those games could be taken and incorporated in my design like a novelist who reads other novelist books to get their writing styles and some wording before writing his own novel.

Don’t make comments if you don’t mean them, especially in a place where i cant tell your tone, body language or expression, if you make a comment against my game such as what you did how do you expect me to take it if in my own mind i think "This guys insulting my work when he knows nothing about it"?

Siolis

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To me and a few other people from the north of the UK *Cough*York*Cough* mining means going underground with machines and pick axes. FYI i know all about how to mine and how they do it, the method you described in a medieval method of getting iron, they don’t do that anymore,

But arnt they trying to emulate the midevil times anyways? Otherwise they should cut the crap with the swords and bows and start carrying heavy machine guns, mortors, et. al.

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You don’t read too well do you?

No, I think you just missed my point. I know the specific games you mentioned aren't important, I made it clear that it was only incidental that I didn't like them. My point was that playing good games in no way makes you a good game designer, but you apparently think it does:

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I play quality computer games ... snip ... so if I designed a game based on what I know to be quality of computer games, doesn’t it make sense to you that it wont be total shit.

I'd like to hear your reasoning there, because I don't think it's true at all. Just because you recognize good and bad design by someone else doesn't mean you yourself can design something good. And taking a bunch of good design elements from different contexts and putting them together doesn't mean they'll all still work and be fun.

This thread is getting pretty far off-topic, so maybe we should start a new one if you'd like to continue this discussion.

Ok then...*jumps thread*...

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Original post by PaulCesar Quote: To me and a few other people from the north of the UK *Cough*York*Cough* mining means going underground with machines and pick axes. FYI i know all about how to mine and how they do it, the method you described in a medieval method of getting iron, they don’t do that anymore, But arnt they trying to emulate the midevil times anyways? Otherwise they should cut the crap with the swords and bows and start carrying heavy machine guns, mortors, et. al.

Granted, hence i take back my original statement, as ive said allready.

Siolis

My two cents about playing "quality" games = good designer.

Frankly, I fail to see how good selling equates to quality. I've played a lot of games that, in the end, totally sucked. They sold a zillion copies, but the game sucked. It happens all the time.

Big name publisher X puts out enough hype and advertising, the game will sell. It doesn't have to be good, it just needs the proper label. Then again, I've played several no-name games that were never even published that were absolutely amazing. The raw pinacle of design.

And if you really want to call me a fanboy, yer welcome to it. I've played nearly every mmo around and find WoW to be the best entertainment for my dollars.

The root problem here is very simple. You don't seem to understand that Blizzard has NEVER tried to make a REALISTIC game. Realism has never been one of their intents, at all, plain and simple. I'm not even sure why you would think it was.

I'm not going to defend mining in WoW. Boring, no doubt about it. I honestly don't think I would find a more realistic system any less boring though. That's just me. I'm not into sims really. Action, adventure, and story. Outside that, I'm not really interested. If you're into sims though, then MMORPGs are the last place you should be looking.

I agree in part with Siolis.

Blizzard aways put gameplay and fun above realism. And that make very fun games, but too unrealistic and unimmersible, halving the games potential. Games so umplausible as Warcraft 3 (with the stupid town portal and overpowered heros and spells) loses immersibility and sense of playing.

But realism in games has a limit. It is when realism gets above gameplay.

Mining....
Let me tell u a very sad tale. Ive played Dragon Raja for a time. In that game, mining was just using a pickaxe in the hand, then click in the mining job and then to the stone (generally near a mountain). It is a fairly realist way to mine. I wanted to be a miner expert. So I started mining. i clicked in the mine skill then the stone. Failed. then i clicked the skill then the stone... failed. Ive tried again and again until i got 1 piece or the most useless metal in the game. That taked about 10 or 20 tries that made 20 to 30 clicks to each useless metal. Then i tried very hard building me up to get better metals. So 4 hours have passed of endless clicking before I started to get usefull metals. Then i got all stones i mined (had to get 1 by 1 from ground) and sold it all. the money barelly pay me for food to restore my stamina spent by the mining.I continued and then i found myself passing days in a hell of clicks just to get 1 or 2 levels of mining.

That fact dont go just to mining, and dont go just for dragon raja. Fishing, Farm, Make Bread, Craft something... all that jobs requires in most MMORPGS for infinite hours of automatic insane mindless clicks.

In the end i started to use a script program that automated the clicks.

I believe Blizzard just wanted to avoid that. I confess that I would never put such job system in my projects.

If you want some mining freakness, try Dungeon Keeper. Its aways fun to slap the workers to work until they die. That was a great way to mining too :) Want do that 1st person? just possess them.