Original post by Way Walker The best solution seems to be to only allow it in those circumstances.
Not to me. This thread is not for arguing for or against a bounty system. Just ideas about the system I proposed. Alot of people believe that MMOGs that only have consensual PvP are boring and it's not just griefers that share that opinion.
Then I think the problem is that you presented your system as a means to "put a damper on senseless PKing". Usually systems like this are devised to superficially allow PKing while not really allowing it. This ignores two facts: 1) Those who "senselessly" PK aren't concerned with in game checks and balances, they're just there to cause others grief (hence "griefer" (yes, I realize there's more than one way to skin a cat, but PKing seems a popular method)). 2) Players aren't completely stupid. If your system completely eliminates PKing, then those who find a PKless game boring will find your game boring. If your system allows it, then those who don't like PKing won't like your game.
For what it's worth, I haven't played recent MMORPGs, but I preferred the free-for-all PK servers. I liked that you had to trust people. I liked being able to help someone who was getting "senselessly PKed". I liked having to be wary of a stranger in town. Basically, I don't think it's a system that needs fixing.
As for your system, it might be interesting if it's designed as a means to add a new dynamic, but not as a means to put a damper on senseless PKing. That is, I think it's interesting if it makes being a bounty hunter fun, but not if it makes senseless PKing significantly less fun. Perhaps just offering rewards to bounty hunters and letting the death of the PKer be the punishment (with whatever normal penalties follow from death).
1) A criminal flag like in UO (they cant go into cities, they get killed) 2) A bounty system described in the above posts. 3) A player and npc police force.
Now if you have a bounty, or you are a criminal, and you get killed by a police officer or a bounty hunter, then you should have a much higher chance of loosing money and loot (special or rare items)
Not only that, if the police get you, they can imprison you for a certain amount of time.
And each time the polic arrest you, your jail time increases. If you commit enough crimes eventually, well then you might go to "court" and then they start talk about what to do with your character... dun dun DUN.
This can be a public court too.
Now there are alot of ways to do a player ran police force, but there are alot of ways to do it wrong.
If you don't impose rules on the police force, then player can abuse it.
For example, if you join the police (you need a good rep, or a invite) when your on duty, you can't kill innocent people, only people with bounty or criminal. etc etc... other rules too.
Maybe I'm being overly simplistic here, but wouldn't a model based around the real world work in this case?
Each city or small town is considered "safe ground", by having enough guards to cover its entire area. Simple AI behaviour would do it: any action like drawing swords or starting to conjure a spell is considered hostile, and will catch any guard's attention. It would add a lot if pedestrian NPCs would shout for the guards in this situation, and guards could call reinforcements.
Once a player or group of players have gotten a guard's attention, they will be asked to stop at once. If they don't aknowledge within some time (by sheathing swords, etc, and moving in different directions), the guard or guards will take action against *anyone* who is considered hostile, innocent or not.
Now, from here on we can elaborate a bit more, or just give them players a good piece of a** woopin' and then sending them away. There are many ways of elaborating the "court" phase (after the incident). One is to have some player deputee called to talk to the involved parties in the police station, and apply sanctions, like a sheriff in the wild wild west. It would probably help a lot if the server had a system in place to record the incident so the deputee could see it. You could also involve witnesses or something!
Out of town would be considered dangerous badlands, and any player would know that. There could be NPC run caravans going from one town to the other, with merchants and guards, and for a small fee a weak or peaceful player could tag along. This would be relatively safe, but bandits would still have an opportunity to create an ambush or something, if they're powerful enough. Roads with a recent history of assaults would be reinforced with guard patrols, and caravans would be packed up with even more guards.
I don't think there's much room for abuse here. Escalating violence would only bring more and more opposition (guards). Bandits would be able to make a living, but keeping a low profile. There's room for the occasional bar brawl or dispute, but it doesn't last enough to make a big fuss. Oh, by the way, the concept of levels doesn't help at all. Police in the real world works because any policeman is about as strong as any other person, and if someone is extremely strong, 5 or 10 policemen should do the trick. Not something like a level 80 behemoth who deals enough damage in one blow to kill 100 noobs.
Anyways, these are not great ideas or anything, they're just a product of my conclusion after researching a lot on this that the justice model we have in real life has been revised over and over by all kinds of geniuses, and it's not perfect, so how can we hope to make a better one? Mechanisms to stop repeated abuses and such are not included in this conclusion. The difference is tenous but you should be able to see it. I don't mean to discourage you, some ideas here are great! But maybe for now we could simply have a system that mimics real life, and since it's not perfect, it creates addition gameplay for those who chose to play bandits.
You have three groups when dealing with the PK / bounty hunter situation, normal, wanted, hunter.
first, the victim. They can fall into several buckets:
normal killed by normal - in this situation, the victim has the right to file a complaint to the NPC "law". In cases of various factions this could vary depending on where they are. This would mean if you go into enemy territory and get killed, you wont be able to file a complaint. I will get to complaints in a sec.
normal killed by hunter - the same as normal killed by normal, hunters are not above the law
normal killed by wanted - the same as normal killed by normal
hunter killed by normal - the same as normal killed by normal
hunter killed by hunter - the same as normal killed by normal
hunter killed by wanted - if the wanted is not one of the hunters current bounties, then they can file the complaint, otherwise no (killed in the line of duty)
wanted killed by normal - bounty against wanted is lessened by a percentage (depending on how wanted they are), normal may or may not be paid a portion of that (they dont get the whole bounty since they arent licensed)
wanted killed by wanted - stupid outlaws shooting each other. If you let wanted cash in bounties, then they could be considered hunters...
wanted killed by hunter - bounty is collected and paid to hunter. wanted is now normal.
How you become wanted is simple, it is based on the kill complaints you get.the system can track pvp combat to determine who threw the first blow, etc. and weight the complaint accordingly. the monetary amount can be maybe awarded like quest awards from the NPC "law"
I understand that this system is not perfect, there are some abuse possibilities to work out, but its an interesting idea.
The reason I suggested preventing the player from committing crimes if they get caught is that there needs to be a way for other players to actually stop another person from doing these things. There is really no way to stop the player from just resurecting and continuing their killing spree as they like. Also, it makes the player not want to hang around the same area for too long, because eventually someone will probably come after them with a bounty.
Sure, they could go do other things, but for the next two hours, they can't initiate combat with other players (but they can defend themselves). That gives other players a way to actually stop other players for a limited amount of time. Who cares if the player could just go do something else for a while or just exit the game until their time is up. You don't want to punish the player too harshly. You especially wouldn't want to give them a money debt. That would just prevent the majority of item-hunters, which makes up a vast majority of the population, not want to do PVP.
Original post by Zefrieg Sure, they could go do other things, but for the next two hours, they can't initiate combat with other players (but they can defend themselves). That gives other players a way to actually stop other players for a limited amount of time. Who cares if the player could just go do something else for a while or just exit the game until their time is up. You don't want to punish the player too harshly. You especially wouldn't want to give them a money debt. That would just prevent the majority of item-hunters, which makes up a vast majority of the population, not want to do PVP.
Debt is not fun in MMORPGs.
WoW has XP debt when you die as does City of Heroes and probably many others. I don't see either of them lacking in players. This is just like it but with gold. The criminals are not actually going into debt when the gold debt is placed on them. They're just taxed half of all their gold intake.
Original post by Zefrieg The reason I suggested preventing the player from committing crimes if they get caught is that there needs to be a way for other players to actually stop another person from doing these things. There is really no way to stop the player from just resurecting and continuing their killing spree as they like. Also, it makes the player not want to hang around the same area for too long, because eventually someone will probably come after them with a bounty.
This is an excellent point! All of these systems don't cover the possibility of a "serial killer". Taking away their ability to commit any crimes for some time is a good method.
What do you think of the semi-realistic system I presented a few posts above? It could be enhanced with Ziegfried's solution by making the authorities confiscate the player's weapons for a set time. This time would increase depending on their recent history of crime committing. There could be a point when the weapons just wouldn't be returned to the owner; you lose your uber weapon as punishment. But the topic of punishment is always a fuzzy one, and maybe this is not an ideal solution.
Original post by Zefrieg Sure, they could go do other things, but for the next two hours, they can't initiate combat with other players (but they can defend themselves). That gives other players a way to actually stop other players for a limited amount of time. Who cares if the player could just go do something else for a while or just exit the game until their time is up. You don't want to punish the player too harshly. You especially wouldn't want to give them a money debt. That would just prevent the majority of item-hunters, which makes up a vast majority of the population, not want to do PVP.
Debt is not fun in MMORPGs.
WoW has XP debt when you die as does City of Heroes and probably many others. I don't see either of them lacking in players. This is just like it but with gold. The criminals are not actually going into debt when the gold debt is placed on them. They're just taxed half of all their gold intake.
Clarification.
World of Warcraft has no XP debt. When you die against other players, there is no penalty other than running back to your corpse from the graveyard.
City of Heroes has XP debt, but PvP isn't an everyday part of the game. It has controlled PvP in arenas, which have no real effect on your character.
Stopping the behavior entirely, rather than trying to enforce a soft penalty, is the only real way that this can work, because PvP combat is its own reward.
World of Warcraft has no XP debt. When you die against other players, there is no penalty other than running back to your corpse from the graveyard.
City of Heroes has XP debt, but PvP isn't an everyday part of the game. It has controlled PvP in arenas, which have no real effect on your character.
Thanks for clearing that up, only played WoW briefly before it entirely disgusted me. But CoH does have a debt, which is what I was pointing out to Zefrieg. I'm sure it will probably have some kind of PvP debt when City of Villians comes out.
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Beige Stopping the behavior entirely, rather than trying to enforce a soft penalty, is the only real way that this can work, because PvP combat is its own reward.
It might be worthwhile to test both having a gold debt and a "PK rest period". I'm pretty stuck on the Gold Debt idea :)
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Jotaf What do you think of the semi-realistic system I presented a few posts above?
I think the guards idea sound very good. I planned on implementing an NPC guard system for the towns. The "court phase" doesn't seem that scalable. If the server is handling thousands of players there will at some point be a back log of cases in court. This would also put a strain on the "player deputees". The "player deputees" would more than likely have to be paid employees or players given some kind of benefit like no subscriptions fees and I would like to avoid this and keep it as automated as possible.
Original post by RobotechIIIt might be worthwhile to test both having a gold debt and a "PK rest period". I'm pretty stuck on the Gold Debt idea :)
Well, that's what I really meant by stopping the behavior; sorry for not making that clear. A hard penalty instead of a soft one.
Gold debt is going to vary widely in effectiveness depending on other gameplay systems, the economy, distribution of item drops, and all that. A PK rest period works regardless of any of this.
