Hmm.

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1) Loss of connection with the character(s).

This is the most serious problem, but I think that it can be replaced in some part with other forms of connection outside of this system; see number 2.

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2) A number of players like to micro manage their character(s).

Yeah, that's true. Micromanagement would be available to them if they really wanted it; states are intended to save time, but if a player is good at flipping through commands, then more power to them.

But in my experience, micromanagement seldom amounts to the execution of a complicated tactic; it's usually the simple ones that demand the attention becomes of interface problems. The states system is intended to deal with the simple ones, and make the complicated ones easier to do by getting rid of the obvious actions.

While the act of directly ordering a particular character to engage in an action does create a link between that character and the player, I doubt that the player will be able to maintain a strong bond with someone they have to lead around by the leash all the time.

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3) States would require more memorization than regular moves since they behave differently than what most players are used to.

This can be solved with a good introduction to the system, a well-presented tutorial, intuitive UI, etc. Fundamentally, this should require less memorization than typical systems, with additional options for powergamers who wish to refine their tactics; though your point about the usual RPG player's familiarity with typical systems is well taken.

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If your Paladin is in a mode that focusses on keeing your team out of harm's way and dealing damage when the opportunity arises, your ninja is set to go balls-out until he's pretty beat up, then report to the Paladin for healing, and your mage is set to keep out of harm's way and fire a lightning bolt when he gets enough charge, you could just let them go or most fights. That will streamline a lot of random battles and "grind" efforts. Set your team up so the thief gets maximum game time if you want to buff him, or balance them out for optimal anti-dragon performance. Shifting gears as the enemy changes or as your system fails would be very engaging. I think you should explore this possibility further.

Yeah! This is the sort of thing I had in mind.

With the additional thought that these states would be manipulatable by both sides; perhaps with something like a morale system.

Actualy what noone sudgested so far is something really cool that i am just NOW thinking of utilizing. Everyone wonders about how to make the leveling system more realistic, removing alot of the statistical variance. Well heres a very good way! Instead of levelings in the normal (armor and weapon determine defense and strength without the need for leveling) you learn and master more and different states, which you can use in combat. you may start with simple hacking and slashing, some shielding, since you shield alot you learn to use your shiled to push back opponents, etc. This would seriously show progression in combat skill, rather then simple number crunching. It would add to an interesting REALTIME turnbased combat, similar to FF's ATB system, though without the need to constantly assigning charactors tasks, and instead have them default. I thinik this is seriously a playable concept.

sorry for spelling and grammatical errors, its 6:00EST, havent been to bed, and dont have my contacts in.

It's an interesting thought. I can't say whether it will be good or bad in the end, but it's definitely interesting.

Here is a spontaneous analysis of how I percieve it. Correct me if I'm wrong; I might be way up the walls.

As you remove some of the management and decision-making from the "intended average player's" chores of usual combat, you move the scope of the player's control somewhat higher. Where other combat focuses the player's control on single character's actions, you focus it on the group of characters present in combat, like when you say that the player define different roles for the combatants. Am I right when I say you want to focus on group dynamics (physical, not social) and the group as a fighting entity?

If so then you could consider making the group assembly process an important game element, with lots of character classes that affect the group in their own way.

Am I far off?

Good luck.

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Original post by PaulCesar Instead of levelings in the normal (armor and weapon determine defense and strength without the need for leveling) you learn and master more and different states, which you can use in combat. you may start with simple hacking and slashing, some shielding, since you shield alot you learn to use your shiled to push back opponents, etc. This would seriously show progression in combat skill, rather then simple number crunching. It would add to an interesting REALTIME turnbased combat, similar to FF's ATB system, though without the need to constantly assigning charactors tasks, and instead have them default. I thinik this is seriously a playable concept.

That's a really cool idea. It involves adding a whole lot more importance to states, and makes balancing states much more precarious, though; but still. With some development.. hmmm.

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As you remove some of the management and decision-making from the "intended average player's" chores of usual combat, you move the scope of the player's control somewhat higher. Where other combat focuses the player's control on single character's actions, you focus it on the group of characters present in combat, like when you say that the player define different roles for the combatants. Am I right when I say you want to focus on group dynamics (physical, not social) and the group as a fighting entity? If so then you could consider making the group assembly process an important game element, with lots of character classes that affect the group in their own way.

Yeah, that's one of the intended effects; though I don't intend to do away with the ability to micro.

I've noticed that MMORPG combat systems often have a level of depth and strategy that regular RPG's tend to lack, probably due to lack of multiplayer; this is something of an attempt to emulate that level in a single-player environment.

For instance, one of your characters might be designated as a "buffer," and their state would include a list of preferred statistic-enhancing abilities in order; as the battle went on, more and more of these would become enabled. Of course, the enemy wouldn't be blind to this, and would attempt to either eliminate your buffer with damage, or by changing their state; making them afraid through concentrated fire, for instance.

A MUD that I used to play had a basic form of this. No matter what, if you were attacked you would automaticly defend yourself and counter attack.

You basicly had several "mood" stats you could be in:
wimpy: More defensive and you would flee if you were below about half your HP
Normal: Neither defensive or offensive and auto flee when you hit quarter HP
Brave: More offensive and flee if you get really low in HP
Berserk: Most offensive and you never flee, even if you wanted to.

Special moves would still require imput from the player but they were more timing issues. I.e. the bash would knock someone on their butt, but if you timed it right they would be on the ground for two rounds instead of just one.

This system worked very well in this game (www.wotmud.org if its still around)

This actually reminds me a bit of the classic RPGs where you had like 4 or 5 total commands to chose from. This subject seems to be more about how to scale the complexity of the system better so that we're still in a management system thats easy and robust.

This isnt a bad idea and would appeal to many. The problem comes when specific gamers, who love to brag about how "skillful" they are, won't have the brag rights to say so with this system :).

Consider Starcraft (alias starcrack) where you could highlight a group of soldiers, and direct them all to a target and start attacking it. Before they got there, you could focus attention elsewhere. That gameplay was about managing all of the AI states, and doing it in a staggered formation so that you never got stuck with people not doing anything. Thats about the extent of my RTS experience.

"States" based for an RPG would have to take into account that I'm bad at doing that "staggering" and do it for me. I.E. it'd have to keep moving through everyone, on some form of auto which I could probably prearrange the list before the fights, so that I can keep up with changing states and not waste time looking around for units.

I was considering having a "training" area where players could use the usual action-based systems to develop their own states, arrange formations as inmate suggested, etc.

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Original post by PaulCesar Instead of levelings in the normal (armor and weapon determine defense and strength without the need for leveling) you learn and master more and different states, which you can use in combat. you may start with simple hacking and slashing, some shielding, since you shield alot you learn to use your shiled to push back opponents, etc. This would seriously show progression in combat skill, rather then simple number crunching. It would add to an interesting REALTIME turnbased combat, similar to FF's ATB system, though without the need to constantly assigning charactors tasks, and instead have them default. I thinik this is seriously a playable concept.

This is actually what I thought he meant by the state system. If you've even moderately explored the SNES Final Fantasy games' code, this is how the monster AI is programmed. Some monsters just pick randomly between a couple attacks, other monsters have a specific state flow (such as Bahamut charging his Megaflare), and others have specialized states such as counterattacking.

Suppose the game starts out with the first couple battles only having one state (fight), a short while later, magic is introduced and the players can cast spells as a state too (only one spell per state)... later, as the game progresses, characters earn more states, and more actions to include in states. Certain equipment might unlock special states, etc. Having your state-based AI go up against the opponent's state-based AI would be pretty interesting.

The biggest drawbacks are:

1) Lack of control. Even if you can tell your character "heal", how does it know which person it should heal? If it's randomized, the battles might largely be based on chance.

2) Since this is based on the same state system the monster AI is based off of, it makes sense that it looks an awful lot like programming. Players unfamiliar with programming might not enjoy this at all...


I wouls enjoy this, but as a member of this board, I enjoy programming a lot. There's a bit of a niche audience.