quote: Original post by ddarius
This is why NPCs are filler, they (being designers) 1) need someone to point the player in the right direction, and 2) need to add them to give that look of a bustling city (even then they don''t add enough).

Yeah, that''s what NPCs tend to be like now, but there is such an untapped potential here. Just the little bit of detail and AI in the NPCs in Thief made the game 20 times as good as it would have been otherwise.




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quote: Original post by Nazrix

Yeah, that's what NPCs tend to be like now, but there is such an untapped potential here. Just the little bit of detail and AI in the NPCs in Thief made the game 20 times as good as it would have been otherwise.

Amen to that Nazrix! Why do people compare their expectations and aspirations to what we have now as opposed to what could eventually be? And until you take that first step, you will never get there.




Edited by - bishop_pass on November 25, 2000 1:40:33 PM

quote: Original post by bishop_pass

Amen to that Nazrix! Why do people compare their expectations and aspirations to what we have now as opposed to what could eventually be? And until you take that first step, you will never get there.

Damned right, bishop. Why are we bothering to create games if we are just going to limit ourselves to what everyone else has done?




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quote:
Your topic title says NPCs are filler. Where is it defined that NPCs are limited to people on the street? NPCs are people who work at places, patronize places, etc.

I didn''t say it was limited to that but basically the average NPC is a town wnaderer. They''re just filler space in the towns. They''re the random everyday people who don''t affect you in anyway. They are the majority of the game''s population, and like the mojority of the world''s population, they could care less about you.

The small percentage of people who actually do connect with your character and affect him in some way are the people who join your party or whatever. Games do have NPCs that you develop relationships with. They''re the main characters.

When I say NPCs are filler I mean the random NPCs that don''t affect the player. Some people were saying that these filler NPCs should have life stories and such but I don''t see the purpose to it.

quote:
Why do people compare their expectations and aspirations to what we have now as opposed to what could eventually be?

I''m not saying you should limit your expectations I''m just calling into question the sense of this idea. I agree that games should be innovative, but will adding detail to every NPC''s ''life'' be a good thing?

ddarius''s example of the ballooned text is one very good reason why I don''t think this is a good idea. Instead of adding to the gameplay you''re instead bogging the user down in obscene amounts of text.

I play games to do things I can''t do in real life like pilot mechs, save the world, and all that nonsense. Why waste time on learning about the fake life story of a blob of pixels? Go talk to real people if you want interaction. I just don''t see the entertainment value of making virtual friends.

"What do we do now?"
"...We die."
-FenrisD

FenrisD, so are you basically thinking that there should be some NPCs that are just fillers while others that are part of the story are more detailed?

I guess it all comes down to what we once talked about the scale of games. If you have a game covering a smaller scale (physical space, NPCs, etc) then there can be more detail. So, if there are less NPCs you can put more detail into.

This also goes back to what Wav said about detail being a trap. If you allow some NPCs to be highly detailed and others to be very plain, the player will lose some immersion because of that incosistancy.


"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

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quote:
FenrisD, so are you basically thinking that there should be some NPCs that are just fillers while others that are part of the story are more detailed?

I think if an NPc is part of the story and actually has a purpose it should be detailed accordingly. Otherwise it''s just a waste of time. Why make useless NPCs have a load of back-story that noone cares about when you could spend that time more productively by making the game more fun.

I want NPC interaction like this:
*Fenris walks in to a shop*
Fenris: I''d like everything in this shop.
Shopkeeper: And how will you be paying for this?
Fenris: With hot lead!
*Fenris opens fire*

Now that would be fun! Haven''t you ever run into the little NPC girl who always has something stupid to say? Don''t you want to purify the NPC gene pool? I''m tired of NPCs who won''t die!


"What do we do now?"
"...We die."
-FenrisD

FenrisD,
I think Wavinator would call you a finisher

Some people like to really escape into the world (experience some background story, explore the world in open freedom) while others want to just get down to business. It's more a design preference.


"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

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Edited by - Nazrix on November 25, 2000 2:42:02 PM

I think FenrisD is reminding us that if it isn''t fun, don''t put it in the game. It''s a good point.

If the focus of the game is on fast-paced action then NPC conversations should be minimal. And if they only serve as signposts or shopkeeps than you can really streamline things, almost to the point of removing the conversation engine. I know I''m not the only one who clicked through the dialog in DII as fast as possible.

If you want to use NPC dialogue then make it important to the gameplay.

yeah that''s a fair summation AP.

D2 is basically an action game, so the text is rather uninteresting to the game. If there was a plot-based game that allowed you to really interact w/ the plot and story then the NPC''s info could be very interesting and relavant...it does depend on the game.


"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Click here to see my current project.

I''m with Naz on this one... Though the title got me seathing

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