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Original post by fastlane69 This is why you choosing ST is so great. I think that was the underlying philosophy of Roddenberry: that mankind struggles and fights due to limited resources, but take that limitation away, and now we have an entire race of peoples "chasing their dreams"...which sounds like a hell of a game to me! :)

[smile] Of course, the real challenge is, as we see, that most RPGs are about getting stuff, whereas most ST episodes are about character and relationships. Yet if you look at how ST games are made, like Elite Force, we're right back to normal conventions (and just fighting, which I'm sure Roddenberry wouldn't have approved of).

Of course, we don't yet have a flexible, complex means for interacting with characters, so interacting with monsters and enemies is always more interesting.

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The way I set up the Ferengi example, you ARE attaining...the new phasers. And since the designs for the phasers are ship specific, sadly every captain must find them from teh ferengi (the quest system again)

Well, I think the quest system, if there's nothing better, is at least some improvement if you ditch money.

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Ok, don't want to make it sound like this is a carefully thought out idea or anything, but I had thought of that at least. :) Notice that as a citizen, you still have to collaborate to get things. I choose a trasnporter pad explicitly because that is something that a new city, town or planet might need....or not...you need to convince the right people...hence the politics even from day one as a citizen.

Yes, I REALLY like how this idea might scale. That's the greatest potential, because you get used to mastering it at the "build a hydroponics farm" level, and by the time you're at the "expand shipyards at Utopia Planitia" you're comfortable and into the whole social / political strategy that would support this. Very cool!

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Reckon you'll have to wait for the REAL Star Trek "Galaxies" to come out. :)

[lol] I expect LOTS of combat if they ever get this done.

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I expect LOTS of combat if they ever get this done.

Sadly...and a good thing Roddenberry isn't here to see it... :(

I would rather live in a universe (ala UO) than constantly fight within it (ala Eq).

Sure it could be a moneyless RPG. Just change the nature of value away from an economic sense. Perhaps manifestational power, which provides that which one or the collective wants or needs instead of the necessity of acquisition through currencies of common exchange value. Or a mana power, mayhaps, where with enough mana or spiritual value collected through good deeds, and you are never hungry, never without thirst or never without what you need or want when you want or need it.

The trick, representationally, so to speak, is that the value of this thing you make is acceptable as a substitute for preferred (sounds a bit like marketing, and in a psychological sense it is) medium of exchange the audience values symbologically or otherwise by demonstrating that this value is preferred by, or of value to, the inhabitants of this world design. This can be done on the setting or circumstance angle, or the action angle, or in the forshadowing or backstory, whichever works best with communicating the value. You have the escape value working for you, so if your player psychographic indicates this flexibility, you could reliably make it work.

Adventuredesign

One thing that always bothered me about the ST moneyless society was that it wasn't particularly realistic - the socioeconomic aspects of it were largely ignored, and it was just assumed to be some kind of utopian society. That, and the fact that it wasn't truly moneyless, at least in the later series where they had plot devices like gold-pressed latinum and replicator rations.

How for example, does trade work? Do traders simply donate their goods out the kindness of their heart? Do they barter for them? (bartering is a rather inefficient form of transaction) Or is trade entirely obsolete with the existence of replicators?

How would such a moneyless society interact with a moneyed society? If the currency can be replicated at will, wouldn't that have a terrible impact on the less advanced society's economy? If it cannot be replicated, then how do you work out any kind of exchange rate with goods that can be replicated at will without having an equally disastrous effect? Plus the fact that if replicators have such limits, then maybe they aren't sufficient to eliminate the need for currency after all...

There's also the issue of productivity to address. How does the society motivate it's citizens to productivity? Or is it so productive already, it doesn't need to, content to let the vast majority slob around in holodecks while a few more adventurous people do useful stuff just for fun?

None of this is to say that a moneyless society is impossible, but I think the deeper social ramifications of infinite supply are well worth considering if you're planning on developing such a world. This is the sort of thing that makes really interesting sci fi in my opinion.

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Sure it could be a moneyless RPG. Just change the nature of value away from an economic sense. Perhaps manifestational power, which provides that which one or the collective wants or needs instead of the necessity of acquisition through currencies of common exchange value. Or a mana power, mayhaps, where with enough mana or spiritual value collected through good deeds, and you are never hungry, never without thirst or never without what you need or want when you want or need it. The trick, representationally, so to speak, is that the value of this thing you make is acceptable as a substitute for preferred (sounds a bit like marketing, and in a psychological sense it is) medium of exchange the audience values symbologically or otherwise by demonstrating that this value is preferred by, or of value to, the inhabitants of this world design.

But this is just a substitution tactic for you can never take it truly away from economics. The core of the mana system is still econonic albeit veiled in a system of maximizing spiritiual rewards and minimizing spiritual punishement. A moneyless economy must have no intermidiaries between Product and Customer.

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One thing that always bothered me about the ST moneyless society was that it wasn't particularly realistic - the socioeconomic aspects of it were largely ignored, and it was just assumed to be some kind of utopian society. That, and the fact that it wasn't truly moneyless, at least in the later series where they had plot devices like gold-pressed latinum and replicator rations.

I think they did a pretty good job. Granted the latinum was introduced but only to support another society using money on a moneyless society...the moneyless society never adopted it persay. Let's examine your reservations:

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How for example, does trade work? Do traders simply donate their goods out the kindness of their heart? Do they barter for them? (bartering is a rather inefficient form of transaction) Or is trade entirely obsolete with the existence of replicators?

Since "hand crafted" is a concept that can presumably still hold value in the future, traders would work by barter and yes, it's inefficient, but remember, we have unlimited resources, thus it can AFFORD to be inefficient. People will always still want Joes' Homestyle Gumbo or a True Bat'lef made by a master.

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If the currency can be replicated at will, wouldn't that have a terrible impact on the less advanced society's economy?

No more or less than counterfeit money does us. Holding counterfeit currency patterns in your replicator buffer could be a serious offense.

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Plus the fact that if replicators have such limits, then maybe they aren't sufficient to eliminate the need for currency after all...

This is a great in-game limitation and one worth examining...perhaps this was true in Roddenberry's world too and all we got was the "Star Fleet" propaganda.

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How does the society motivate it's citizens to productivity?

What exactly do you have to be productive at? You can be as lazy or motivated as you want. I suspect personal fame and curiosity will drive many people to be productive and outstanding to be recognized or to see new worlds and wonders.

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Or is it so productive already, it doesn't need to, content to let the vast majority slob around in holodecks while a few more adventurous people do useful stuff just for fun?

Another possibility ripe for in-game exploration, though this sounds closer to Ian Banks' Culture than Roddenberry's Federation

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Original post by fastlane69 Since "hand crafted" is a concept that can presumably still hold value in the future, traders would work by barter and yes, it's inefficient, but remember, we have unlimited resources, thus it can AFFORD to be inefficient. People will always still want Joes' Homestyle Gumbo or a True Bat'lef made by a master.

Yes, that's true, the hand made touch may hold some 'value' - but how much?

Assuming that the crafter has unlimited supply, there is nothing you can give him that he can't already have - except perhaps another hand crafted item, or perhaps performing a service for him. You also have to ask what his motivations for creating the item are: since he has unlimited supply, there's no real reason for him to have bothered making it, however he chose to do so for amusement. Since there is no money, he probably didn't plan on selling it, so perhaps the 'service' answer is the best: If you spend your time doing something you're good at for him, he will spend his time doing some thing he is good at (making Bat'lefs) for you...

Perhaps time is a currency? One of the few valuable things a person has left to give in a moneyless society is his time.

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No more or less than counterfeit money does us. Holding counterfeit currency patterns in your replicator buffer could be a serious offense.

Well, contemporary counterfeiting is a difficult process, and only good enough to pass casual inspection. However, scanning a coin into your replicator and then replicating it perfectly ad infinitum is likely to cause a lot more problems. It would be like giving everyone their own perfect money making machine.

There could be restrictions on replicating currency, but how would they be enforced? Particularly since what constitutes currency could be very different from culture to culture. And how would those restrictions be flexible enough to allow any trade at all?

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This is a great in-game limitation and one worth examining...perhaps this was true in Roddenberry's world too and all we got was the "Star Fleet" propaganda.

ISTR the gold-pressed latinum was unreplicable, which was why it was able to retain value in ferengi society despite the existance of replicators. What was never explained was why they'd bother with it to buy other things that were for the most part, easily replicable...

Can I make a categorization? We technically have RPG-Like games where the currency system is downplayed. Basically, any Zelda or zelda clone. The money never quite expands beyond 1000, and you can only use it for bombs or a potion. The maximum purse size removes the extreme greed, since, it'd only take like 10 minutes of searching to fill that purse.

As for concepts of money-less systems... You could derive a communal system where someone's participation in society translates into a rank which opens up their daily rations and expands their allocated equipment pool.

Take a Level 1, Rank 1 newbie. He goes and cleans out a sewer, coming back with 100 proofs of kill, and a Level of 2, and the Manager of the sewer awards a Rank of 2, which gets the newbie 2 cure leaves a day, and access to the short sword. When your players reaches Rank 50, or whatever the upper limit would be, they'd move into the global economy of antiquities trading or whatever the really rare items would be.

In a society with replicators the only currency is power, since everyone needs it to run their replicators. The replicators turn power into everything else, and you can't make power in a replicator (Unless you want to throw all the laws of physics out the window). You could have people use power credits or something. And the bank and power company will be pretty much the one and the same.

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Original post by adventuredesign The trick, representationally, so to speak, is that the value of this thing you make is acceptable as a substitute for preferred (sounds a bit like marketing, and in a psychological sense it is) medium of exchange the audience values symbologically or otherwise by demonstrating that this value is preferred by, or of value to, the inhabitants of this world design. This can be done on the setting or circumstance angle, or the action angle, or in the forshadowing or backstory, whichever works best with communicating the value. You have the escape value working for you, so if your player psychographic indicates this flexibility, you could reliably make it work.

You can swap out the currency for another symbolic representation, but I think if you do that the new representation comes with its own baggage (in terms of gameplay and expectations).

Say you swap money for "prestige." Prestige has certain expectations and allowable transactions, as well as certain aquisition methods, that money does not. You might be sold a fancy item based on either your money or prestige, but you don't expect your prestige to diminish (which is a natural limiting dynamic money provides, sort of a free balancing mechanism). Likewise, if you have a diverse society, you might expect to have different forms of prestige.

I think with something like manna (or bottlecaps, as in Fallout), you're right, so long as (as you say) the audience accepts the swap psychologically.

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Original post by Sandman One thing that always bothered me about the ST moneyless society was that it wasn't particularly realistic - the socioeconomic aspects of it were largely ignored, and it was just assumed to be some kind of utopian society. That, and the fact that it wasn't truly moneyless, at least in the later series where they had plot devices like gold-pressed latinum and replicator rations.

I think they nailed the utopian society aspect, but only because Roddenberry initially insisted on a world without interpersonal conflict (and drove his writers crazy as a result). If you assum the people's needs are met and they're culturally bland (in that nothing is offensive to anybody) then maybe it works, but in our conflict and acquisition driven society it would be hard to relate to.

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How for example, does trade work? Do traders simply donate their goods out the kindness of their heart? Do they barter for them? (bartering is a rather inefficient form of transaction) Or is trade entirely obsolete with the existence of replicators?

[lol] Let's not peer behind the veil TOO closely, now. Traveling hundreds (or even simply dozens) of light years to trade an item that is worth a fraction of the energy you must have expended to trade it?

Keeping this related to game design, I find it interesting that in both design and storytelling we find it difficult to imagine sustainable entertainment without conflict. We may be wired so that it is not possible.

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How would such a moneyless society interact with a moneyed society? If the currency can be replicated at will, wouldn't that have a terrible impact on the less advanced society's economy? If it cannot be replicated, then how do you work out any kind of exchange rate with goods that can be replicated at will without having an equally disastrous effect? Plus the fact that if replicators have such limits, then maybe they aren't sufficient to eliminate the need for currency after all...

Yes, in between shuttling ambassadors and getting shipwrecked, they never touch much on this stuff. Now the Federation is considered hugely ethical, so they might not make a decision to destroy the economy of another power, for instance. But the bad guys in their universe have similar or even better tech, so there's no explanation there.

Of course, if I were to do it, the replicator system, provided it relied on some inexhaustable energy source such as solar-created antimatter, would be an unstoppable technological force-- the equivalent of out of control Von Neuman machines. And all the conflict would be around who does or doesn't get this power. I think it would be VERY dramatic to capture the effects you're talking about (but, unfortunately, media creators-- even the geeks-- are notoriously anti-intellectual as soon as you step out of their domain of expertise).

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There's also the issue of productivity to address. How does the society motivate it's citizens to productivity? Or is it so productive already, it doesn't need to, content to let the vast majority slob around in holodecks while a few more adventurous people do useful stuff just for fun?

My bet is that 99% of the human race would be trying to find meaning in their lives were they freed from economic constraints-- and that leads to art, religion, service, exploration and a host of other very positive traits. It's only when you're something of an economic slave, sandwhiched between the oblivion of birth and death, utterly powerless to control your own fate, that I think you get an uncontrollable yen for sedation-- because you're trying to escape what you deem a meaningless existence. As we've industrialized and more people have found themselves at the mercy of sociopolitical forces they neither understand nor control, I think we've seen a washing out of the human spirit, with strident rebellions.

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None of this is to say that a moneyless society is impossible, but I think the deeper social ramifications of infinite supply are well worth considering if you're planning on developing such a world. This is the sort of thing that makes really interesting sci fi in my opinion.

There might be two fascinating ways to do this in games: The first would be a transition society, where all the rules and values were falling away (a world filled with fear and promise); the other would be as a "pure purpose" game, maybe with a goal of solving resource-resistant problems like hatred or xenophobia.

Neither, I think, would be an RPG. Maybe something like the adventure-flight-sim fusion of the old Spectrum Holobyte Star Trek games would work. But without constant killing and leveling (wrapped in a neat little story), I think most RPG players would reject it out of hand.