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Original post by Wavinator So what do you do for the addictive sense of attainment that comes from earning money? Attaining, I think, in our minds, equals power, freedom and control (maybe because of the type of society we are, I'm not sure).

This equation is a result of money being universal item which can be at any moment exchanged for a number of goods or services. So yes, increased amount of money means increased freedom of acquiring widening range of goods and services, and control over others you can exercise by acquiring their services.. in short, increased power of the individual.

If you create some magic society where everyone can easily get their hands on any physical item they can dream of, there will still be some things (or positions in social hierarchy) which won't be available to everyone. With such setup, sense of power again would come from accumulation of means that allow one to obtain these exclusive things.

(note, i don't think this Star Trek setup with magical replicators makes much sense... if one can pull things out of thin air at will, i should be pretty much able to 'replicate' for free the resources necessary to build my own starship along with automated crew to put it together and then fly it for me... who needs the 'official' space fleet then, and how is such official fleet going to react to equivalent of nuclear air carrier parked behind every house..? >>;;

Come to think of it, the most recent RPG I played that had no currency was Xenosaga 2.

I think for the whole no currency concept to work, you have to kind of model your character development system, skills, and equipment system in a completely different way such that the players don't really notice that they never really bought anything. So, kind of just build the game around the concept.

Just a thought....

Great responses. I like the suggestion that getting an item == control. But control of what? Is it the virtual / storyworld sense of control, or is it control of how you play the game (or both/neither)?

I think bartering is an interesting alternative. That seemed to work well in A Tale In The Desert, and I could even see it working in a single-player RPG because the NPCs would, in theory, be much more interesting.

Here's an interesting point of tension: Money lets you control where you go (if there are other areas requiring funds to reach); who you can challenge (via equipment); and what other gameplay, if provided, that you can get into (also limited often by equipment / spells / items / etc.)

However, what if you shifted everything away from actually getting an item as the reward, and instead made all the other incidentals that you use money for the reward? You would take a quest so that you could be trained; once trained, you'd be able to take another quest so that you could earn armor; after that, you'd take another quest to get a house; and so on.

This would mean that the opinions of the NPCs would be the gateway to whether or not you progressed. It would have to be fuzzy (no visible prestige points) or you'd just be thinking money again. In fact, as soon as you make visible "x points" of anything, it will be related to money.

I can imagine a much more complex web between NPCs, some who may oppose each other, creating a lot of different strategy once the independence of money is taken away. I can also imagine RPG traditionalists rebelling, because while we say we want new things, what we often truly want are permutations of what we already know.

I don't know the solution.. but I do know that, when playing games such as Castlevnia: Symphony of the Night, I often wish I could sell my 99 old dirty cloaks for money.. and use that to purchse health potions or something. It really gives me the feeling that all those acquired items are being wasted.. and that irks me to now end.

How a Star Trek system could work:

Assumptions

1) There is no currency of any kind; no prestige and no credits
2) Replicators can create any thing at any time
3) There are levels in this world; for the time being we'll stick to star fleet and it's navy based levels (ensign, captain, admiral, etc)


How it would work

There are restrictions to what you can replicate based on energy available, pattern availability, and level of character. Furthermore, some request to replicate require multiple confirmations from character or NPCs


How it could be fun

You start out as a private citizen. As such your needs aren't great, but neither are your demands. Food, clothes, basic protection and transportation (through the transporter) are free and you can get as much as you want. You can request more from your local NPCs (such as a space shuttle) who will give you quests or you can collaborate to make items (some replicator requests require the approval of 2 or more citizens to create such as a new transporter pad)

One day you look up to the stars and wonder "what's up there for me?"....this takes you straight into the offices of Star Fleet where you promptly sign up. Now, with your new level of ensign, you have more rights to duplication...a uniform...a type I phaser...etc. As always, if you have need for more you can go to your captain to request it (but don't go silly on your requests or you will be demoted)

After many adventures, you are promoted to captain. There is no limit to what you can replicate on your ship (energy willing) but you must have the designs on record. You find out that star fleet has just come up with a new design for your ships phasers, but unfortunatly the Ferengi have stolen them. After a series of encounters with the Ferengi (non-violent and often funny), you finally manage to upload the design into your computer, replicate and install your new phasers.

After many game-years, you have seen the stars and are sick of command...you want to effect a greater change on the Federation. Thus you work and ultimitly are promoted to admiral. Here you have true unlimited resources and your only obsticles to replicating a mass armada of galaxy class star ships and start to explore the Beta Quadrant is a) politics (it takes 4 Star Fleet admirals to approve the constructions) and b) energy (you have to make sure your planet has enough energy for it's needs before you can divert for your needs)


Conclusion

You don't need money; you can give the player the illusion of ultimate freedom and still give them a sense of achivement at the same time. All that is needed is a set of restrictions that make sense within the context of the world and that the player must overcome to acheive their personal level of freedom....for eg, some people (like Kirk) will never like being admiral and thus may be quite content with the freedoms and restrictions therein. Others, like Janeway, go straight for the top and don't stop.

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Original post by fastlane69 How a Star Trek system could work:

Nicely thought out! I like the idea of approval from others, which might work well in both an MMO or single-player context.

One of the interesting things your post made me think of is how reward comes in many different forms. What you're suggesting could be a reward in terms of experiences the player gains access to. Ironically, it's a little like console level unlocking, which I hate, but made palatable because it has a plausible premise.

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There are restrictions to what you can replicate based on energy available, pattern availability, and level of character. Furthermore, some request to replicate require multiple confirmations from character or NPCs

Access protocols, or command protocols, I think Trek called them. It makes sense that you earn multiple protocols as a result of both your ranks and past achievements.

If you have an underlying loyalty or NPC opinion system, you also get politics for free. That possiblility is VERY intriguing, because what if you find yourself in the position of wanting something from two people, both from which you need approval, who are at odds? (I'd like to see a freeform way of improving relations, though, which could also be fun.)

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You start out as a private citizen. As such your needs aren't great, but neither are your demands.

When I first read this it worried me. But it's a classic sociological problem, brought to the tiny universe of game design: Are people motivated because of scarcity, or motivated because of deeper drives that, when scarcity is eliminated, can come to the fore?

I was going to be cynical and suggest that traditional RPGs have set our expectations, but thinking about it carefully, I'm not so sure. One of the first things many of us seem to do in an RPG when we start is go looking for the action. Our motivation is wanting something cool and fun to do.

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One day you look up to the stars and wonder "what's up there for me?"....this takes you straight into the offices of Star Fleet where you promptly sign up. Now, with your new level of ensign, you have more rights to duplication...a uniform...a type I phaser...etc. As always, if you have need for more you can go to your captain to request it (but don't go silly on your requests or you will be demoted)

Demotion would work, but I think an even cooler nuance would a virtual community's regard for you. Give the player the opportunity to make any request, because it just might be the crazy plan that works. But if it's too out of bounds, or you fail, those in charge are going to stop listening to you. This makes it progressively harder and harder to win your way back into everyone's good graces, yet the option would always be there.

(Then, of course, there are those transfers to the arse end of space if you really goof up, which I think should just be an easier area that you can rebuild your rep in.)

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After many adventures, you are promoted to captain. There is no limit to what you can replicate on your ship (energy willing) but you must have the designs on record. You find out that star fleet has just come up with a new design for your ships phasers, but unfortunatly the Ferengi have stolen them. After a series of encounters with the Ferengi (non-violent and often funny), you finally manage to upload the design into your computer, replicate and install your new phasers.

It's risky because it interrupts / alters the cycle of attaining, but this might work because your main interest at this point would probably be the choicer assignments. And maybe attracting the best of the best in personnel.

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After many game-years, you have seen the stars and are sick of command...you want to effect a greater change on the Federation. Thus you work and ultimitly are promoted to admiral. Here you have true unlimited resources and your only obsticles to replicating a mass armada of galaxy class star ships and start to explore the Beta Quadrant is a) politics (it takes 4 Star Fleet admirals to approve the constructions) and b) energy (you have to make sure your planet has enough energy for it's needs before you can divert for your needs)

For this to be possible, you'd need a uniformly consistent system (to serve as foundation for the code). So at the citizen level, there'd have to be something involving politics, to both set expectations, give players a taste and allow them the time to train themselves on how to play it. If things weren't uniform, you'd have to develop separate AI and game dynamics to back each new phase, which would be harder to create.
Conclusion

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for eg, some people (like Kirk) will never like being admiral and thus may be quite content with the freedoms and restrictions therein. Others, like Janeway, go straight for the top and don't stop.

If you were Kirk, hopefully playing the game would be its own reward.


Wow, I wonder what it would feel like to play a game where both the traditional money / resource system was in place, and this opinion / reputation system. It would model the difference between working for yourself and working for some large body. I wonder which most would prefer.

After reading all this, I have come to the conclusion that with the exception of having a barter system that an RPG without money would be next to impossible. Sure everyone has other ideas such as using prestige and ranks. But really all they are doing is turning prestige and ranks into another form of currency, so in a way all they are doing is renaming "gold" to "prestige."

I have a thought as to how you might accomplish this well, and that would be the idea of access levels. If you look at Star Trek, not everybody can replicate everything. Certain access levels are required to do things. Also this would add a level of attainment for when someone achieves the next access level they are able to get such and such an item.


And just as a general interest point not everything is replicated in Star Trek. If I recall a lot of their weaponry, etc. is actually built either by hand or by manufacturing due to the complexity.

--Terlenth

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Ironically, it's a little like console level unlocking, which I hate, but made palatable because it has a plausible premise

When I was thinking that up, I was thinking in terms of an MMO. And in an MMO, if you really think about it, it's one big "console unlock". Sure you can go to the dragons lair at level one....but you'll only make it to the doormat! To "unlock" the dragons lair you have to have level equipment and other stuff perhaps.

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Are people motivated because of scarcity, or motivated because of deeper drives that, when scarcity is eliminated, can come to the fore?

This is why you choosing ST is so great. I think that was the underlying philosophy of Roddenberry: that mankind struggles and fights due to limited resources, but take that limitation away, and now we have an entire race of peoples "chasing their dreams"...which sounds like a hell of a game to me! :)

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It's risky because it interrupts / alters the cycle of attaining, but this might work because your main interest at this point would probably be the choicer assignments.

The way I set up the Ferengi example, you ARE attaining...the new phasers. And since the designs for the phasers are ship specific, sadly every captain must find them from teh ferengi (the quest system again)

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For this to be possible, you'd need a uniformly consistent system (to serve as foundation for the code). So at the citizen level, there'd have to be something involving politics, to both set expectations, give players a taste and allow them the time to train themselves on how to play it.

Ok, don't want to make it sound like this is a carefully thought out idea or anything, but I had thought of that at least. :) Notice that as a citizen, you still have to collaborate to get things. I choose a trasnporter pad explicitly because that is something that a new city, town or planet might need....or not...you need to convince the right people...hence the politics even from day one as a citizen.

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Wow, I wonder what it would feel like to play a game where both the traditional money / resource system was in place, and this opinion / reputation system.

Reckon you'll have to wait for the REAL Star Trek "Galaxies" to come out. :)

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Original post by Terlenth I have a thought as to how you might accomplish this well, and that would be the idea of access levels. If you look at Star Trek, not everybody can replicate everything. Certain access levels are required to do things. Also this would add a level of attainment for when someone achieves the next access level they are able to get such and such an item.

What could be cool about access levels is the whole idea of how you attain them. What if you could get them via coercion, kidnapping, hacking or seduction?

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And just as a general interest point not everything is replicated in Star Trek. If I recall a lot of their weaponry, etc. is actually built either by hand or by manufacturing due to the complexity.

You're right. I actually think that you never want to get rid of building, just because the whole idea of parts and pieces means things you can trade, find, reuse, upgrade, etc.