Given that a major part of an RPG is character investment, what would cause you to be interested in spanning "lifetimes"? Assuming an RPG where:

• Death doesn't end the game
• You can't undo past actions by reloading
• It's important for the story to level your "ghost" / "spirit"
• Civilization expands, tech levels change
• You can skip forward to epic points in the timeline

I'd like to bounce this refinement of earlier ideas off of you: You're facing off against godlike forces as a kind of immortal highlander-style character (infected with a super-AI that's growing). The story can only unravel across lifetimes and vast distances in space. Nations and social institutions may ebb and flow around you, but every lifetime you'd have a few critical windows of opportunity to make a change that impacts the story. To sum up several posts so far: You'd play through freeform gameplay or missions on a level with certain initial conditions (like war, or scientific challenges). You could either stay on the level or cause critical shifts in the game world by choosing to advance time forward, skipping to important life moments (and making critical story choices along the way). There would be rival NPC "highlanders" operating around you. Ignore them and they'll change the world without you. Engage them and you'll either fight or ally, depending on how you feel about what they want to do. The new twist I'm trying out is: Death of a character would be permanent barring resurrection technology. But if you couldn't resurrect, you'd be an electronic ghost whose power would be cumulative the entire game. The ghost could do certain things in the game world, namely spend its accumulated power to significantly alter a secret, vast network of forgotten technology. This tech could supply a starving city or raze that city; cause storms across a planet or shield it; or even cool a star or move it. Given this, you'd actually WANT to die in order to both advance the story, change the world to be more favorable, and drastically affect your other highlander rivals (who'd also be dying and leveling). The catch is that to bank more of your ghost ability, you'd need to live again.

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Being alive would have some critical advantages. The longer you lived, the more "ghost" power you'd have, by sheer din of being able to skill up and develop personality traits. You'd need a certain amount of power to get past nodes in the story. Upon death, you'd have a few options:

• You could reincorporate exactly as your old character, with all skills and personality bonuses; but your money, "ghost power" and world reputation would be lost and you'd start in a random location further down the timeline. This might give your rivals a chance to consolidate their power or wreak havock on your mortal allies.
• If you had progeny, you could restart as any child. You'd have a new character, no skills, no "ghost power," but access to all your old wealth and allies; but also have the same enemies and troubles. Progeny would require winning a spouse or lover.
• If tech permitted, you'd start as a clone that had whatever skills you last "backed up" with. Each backup would cost money or some special resource, and you could only backup in certain places. Backups would be along "soulcatcher networks" (like cell phone nets), and you'd have to be part of a faction that had a safe and secure respawn loc or your enemies would just come in and kill you again.

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Goal Of The Idea - Watch a world build and unfold, participating at an intimate level; make death a beginning, not an end; capture the epic flavor of science fiction. Thoughts?

I would like this.

Like blackadder hehe.

Maybe the multiple lives in Eternal Darkness on the GC captures some of these ideas?

Sounds like a very interesting idea to explore for a game. Perhaps you'd like to take a look at "The Years of Rice and Salt" by Kim Stanley Robinson and "Ghost Written" and "Cloud Atlas" by David Mitchell. These novels explore similar ideas of storylines crossing multiple lives, though I'm sure there are many more that I've not yet read.

Theres something that worries me about this.

If when you die you are reborn further down the timeline at another epic moment, then it would be possible to reach the end of the game without winning any of the battles.

You could end up being at the ultimate battle for the universe, but not deserving to be there.

How do you progress a story/game if the player keeps 'kicking the bucket'.

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Original post by StaticVoid You could end up being at the ultimate battle for the universe, but not deserving to be there. How do you progress a story/game if the player keeps 'kicking the bucket'.

Your power simply doesn't increase. You skip forward and ed-up in a world that's totally against you and you have no chance to influence the outcome of this "ultimate battle" and can only watch the whole place wrecking up.

If the battle is just between you and fellow immortals, then being reborn will just effect your enviroment/tech/persona available to you. Theres no need to progress the story (if could have one in such a game) when you die.

The world around you cannot continue to evolve forever. There must be situation that causes the world to devolve.

I like the idea of traveling world trying to track down fellow immortals and seeing familar locations change through the generations.

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Original post by Wavinator The new twist I'm trying out is: Death of a character would be permanent barring resurrection technology. But if you couldn't resurrect, you'd be an electronic ghost whose power would be cumulative the entire game.

What's the nature of this ghost?

Is it a process on a computer somewhere? Could you instantly 'teleport to' any location within the computer's influence? Is the computer stationary, or can it be stowed on a ship? Can it be destroyed? Perhaps you (and maybe all the other immortals) are being simulated on a vast computer the size of a solar system. Infeasible to destroy, but also infeasible to move: communications lag would limit your travelling ability, unless you had ansibles.

If the ghost isn't present as matter anywhere, what is it? Some exotic energy field? Can it move faster than the speed of light? Can it be detected? What effect would EMP pulses, nuclear weapons, antimatter weapons or black holes have on it?

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The ghost could do certain things in the game world, namely spend its accumulated power to significantly alter a secret, vast network of forgotten technology. This tech could supply a starving city or raze that city; cause storms across a planet or shield it; or even cool a star or move it.

How? Can the ghost physically interact with the universe? If it can, it is really a 'ghost'? If it's stored on a computer, would it need to hack into the technology from afar? Why wouldn't a ghost just use its power to turn on an android and avoid having to reincarnate in a fragile human body.

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Given this, you'd actually WANT to die in order to both advance the story, change the world to be more favorable, and drastically affect your other highlander rivals (who'd also be dying and leveling). The catch is that to bank more of your ghost ability, you'd need to live again. Being alive would have some critical advantages. The longer you lived, the more "ghost" power you'd have, by sheer din of being able to skill up and develop personality traits. You'd need a certain amount of power to get past nodes in the story.

Why can't a ghost learn skills or develop its personality?

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<li>If you had progeny, you could restart as any child. You'd have a new character, no skills, no "ghost power," but access to all your old wealth and allies; but also have the same enemies and troubles. Progeny would require winning a spouse or lover.

What happens to the intellect that previously inhabited the child? Are they dead, or could they have become ghosts as well? Might the child you killed reincorporate itself and seek revenge on the parent that killed it?

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If tech permitted, you'd start as a clone that had whatever skills you last "backed up" with. Each backup would cost money or some special resource, and you could only backup in certain places. Backups would be along "soulcatcher networks" (like cell phone nets), and you'd have to be part of a faction that had a safe and secure respawn loc or your enemies would just come in and kill you again.

You don't need 'ghosts' for this. Have an implant which broadcasts a constant signal on the network whilst you're alive. When you die the signal stops and you are reincarnated as a clone. If, in the science of your game, you can use quantum entanglement effects to send messages faster than light, you don't need a network, and nothing could block the signal.

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Goal Of The Idea - Watch a world build and unfold, participating at an intimate level; make death a beginning, not an end; capture the epic flavor of science fiction.

Do you need ghosts to do this? The player isn't really her character. If the character dies, the player could continue the game in another character without the game world needing to know about it.

If 'ghosts' are just AIs running on a computer, I don't have a problem with the idea. But if that's true, then when you're 'alive', you're just an AI running on the computer inside your skull. There shouldn't be any effect on your ability to develop skills and 'level up', except perhaps for skills which your body, rather than your mind, learns to apply.

^-- That was me.
It forgot I was logged in.

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Original post by StaticVoid Theres something that worries me about this. If when you die you are reborn further down the timeline at another epic moment, then it would be possible to reach the end of the game without winning any of the battles. You could end up being at the ultimate battle for the universe, but not deserving to be there. How do you progress a story/game if the player keeps 'kicking the bucket'.

As I see it, if you keep dying this shouldn't be a problem because the enemy immortals will just keep breaking themselves down. In other words, just as if you don't follow the story at all.

Sorry it's taken so long to get to reply, btw. Hope some are still following this.

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Original post by Nathan Baum What's the nature of this ghost?

I could offer you a fancy "quantum-based energy patterns" whatsit, but I'm not sure this matters, really. The technology can twist to fit the need of the gameplay, which I think is a much more vital focus. I don't mean to appear to turn your question aside lightly (especially since you've put a lot of thought into it), but I've observed that where science fiction is concerned (unlike fantasy) it's easy to get so twisted up in reality that gameplay is forgotten.

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How? Can the ghost physically interact with the universe? If it can, it is really a 'ghost'? If it's stored on a computer, would it need to hack into the technology from afar? Why wouldn't a ghost just use its power to turn on an android and avoid having to reincarnate in a fragile human body.

Well, FWIW, because I've read far too many depressing "we're all destined to become silicon" books, my idea about the ghost is that flesh is a technology, the universe's natural technology for storing dense quantum entities. Silicon can come close, but AI that arises from it is a totally different order of life, with different strictures and objectives; and the closer a person gets to machine, the more they lose of "vital essence" (if you're familiar with that old concept).

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Why can't a ghost learn skills or develop its personality?

Again, here we simply have gameplay in search of a handy explanation. Do we say that the brain is what holds the skills? The restart options are to add interest and challenge.

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What happens to the intellect that previously inhabited the child? Are they dead, or could they have become ghosts as well? Might the child you killed reincorporate itself and seek revenge on the parent that killed it?

Why so negative? This concept must suggest some sort of positive, additive process rather than a vampiric, subsumptive one.

The intellect of the previous child, for gameplay purposes, doesn't exist. Your will and theirs are identical.

I think this is one of those things that no one will care about, such as "why in Sim City do you get to establish commercial and residential realestate when you're the mayor," or "where do your troops sleep in Warcraft."

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Quote: If tech permitted, you'd start as a clone that had whatever skills you last "backed up" with. Each backup would cost money or some special resource, and you could only backup in certain places. Backups would be along "soulcatcher networks" (like cell phone nets), and you'd have to be part of a faction that had a safe and secure respawn loc or your enemies would just come in and kill you again. You don't need 'ghosts' for this. Have an implant which broadcasts a constant signal on the network whilst you're alive. When you die the signal stops and you are reincarnated as a clone. If, in the science of your game, you can use quantum entanglement effects to send messages faster than light, you don't need a network, and nothing could block the signal.

Since "ghosts" in this universe are forms of organized quantum energy, I think we pretty much agree here except on the idea of tunneling. Not only is it a convenience (again for gameplay, risk and reward behavior), there's no reason to expect that with a barely understood science there couldn't be requirements or catches that stand in the way (especially if it serves gameplay).

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Do you need ghosts to do this? The player isn't really her character. If the character dies, the player could continue the game in another character without the game world needing to know about it. If 'ghosts' are just AIs running on a computer, I don't have a problem with the idea. But if that's true, then when you're 'alive', you're just an AI running on the computer inside your skull. There shouldn't be any effect on your ability to develop skills and 'level up', except perhaps for skills which your body, rather than your mind, learns to apply.

AI in the skull (cybrid) is an intriguing idea, but my instinct says that it's far too sterile to be appealing. For good or ill people need an emotional, human anchor to relate to. Whatever real technology holds for humanity (cloning, post-human silicon consciousness, AI), we are deeply wedded to our mythical and mystical / superstitious roots.

Look at a game like Total Annihilation as an example, a great game that hasn't 1/10 the flavor of a Starcraft or Warcraft. Or consider something like the movie The Matrix and ask yourself if the characters would have been as engaging if they were machines.

Hardcore science geeks (like myself, and I suspect you) might be able to empathize for an electronic consciousness, but everybody else needs something with a soul.