Anyone ever play Black Gold or Ports of Call ? They were basiacally business sims... I will be referencing Ports of Call (PoC) throughout the remainder of this post and feel that I should briefly describe the game. PoC was a game in which you started with a set amount of cash and a boat. Not a fishing boat, but a cargo boat. With this boat you signed agreements to ship goods from one port to the next. Manage the business well enough to buy more ships and make more money... the unique element of the game was when you didnt have enough money on hand to have tug boats help your ship into the dock, you would have to steer the ship into port yourself. This arcade element of the game made it a bit more fun than just managing ship/equiptment/contracts. As many of you know, the company that I work for is currently placing our MPOW on hold. It has been on hold for the past 3 weeks. So... I have decided to pick up an old design of mine and continue work on it during this "down time." I suppose my main question is this... (as my subject suggest) Is a Business Sim viable? I think there is a big push in online games and moreover RPGs, RTSs and FPSs in general... Are there players out there that are just looking for a single player game that they can enjoy when they get an hour of free time? Are business sims old-school? I know that it doesn''t really matter what everyone thinks... but as I desing (redesign as the ideal is 8 years old) this game, I cant seem to shake this thought from the front of my head.... You know the "Why am I wasting my time on this?" and "Who the heck is going to play this game?" thoughts Thanks, Dave "Dak Lozar"Loeser

The more complicated it is, the smaller the audience will be.

I think games like this can be too much like work unless you find a way to make them both active and "sexy" (for lack of a better word). Take for example the Tycoon games, or Lavamind''s Gazillionare Deluxe, or Tom Clancy''s game about software companies (forgot the name). I think the key to these games is to make them "business sim +." That is, there are core business elements surrounded by interesting bells and whistles (like the backstabbing / sabotage gameplay in Clancy''s game, or the arcade docking you mentioned in PoC)

I think the more "spreadsheet" your game is, the smaller the market will be. Most people want more active and immediate feedback for the choices. Look at the sucess of the space trading games (Elite, Privateer, X-Beyond the Frontier) as another example. In most, you can excel as a pure merchant, or get an adrenaline rush by going after pirates. The good thing about these games is that the gameplay is intertwined (being a smuggler through dangerous territory is often a lucrative business option).

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Just waiting for the mothership...

Yea I agree Wavi (if I can call you that, my family calls me Davy).
I''m an old Elite, Frontier Elite, Elite anything player and I have X on my HD now. As well as Tachyon The Fringe I love space trader games...

What I have in mind is a similar to a space trader only closer to the ground. Here is the jist of the game;

The year is 2090 (only 90 years away) trains have been outlawed due to the invention of hover vehicles. So how are goods shipped? Via modern tractor trailors. These machines are everybit as lame as the tractor trailors of today save the fact that they are equiped with cannons and missles. Why? Because the world is in chaos and pirates are around every corner, waiting to hijak your goods. The game is played just like Elite, but as I said the locale is earth.

Additionaly you can hire drivers to work for your fleet. This is where the business aspect of the game comes into play. The vehicles need to be maintianed and contracts negotiated etc... so, I think the game won''t be your typical spreadsheet business sim. In fact, if you choose, you don''t even have to hire drivers or buy more vehicles, you can play in the contemporary manner.


Ideals, thoughts?


Dave "Dak Lozar"Loeser

Dak- I always want to call him Wavy Gravy, but I think he''d beat me up.

At first, I thought you were considering a straight business sim, and while I don''t know if it would fit *at all* w/ your MMOG, something like that overlaid even a game like EverQuest could really rock, giving people something to do other than PK. Were you the one talking about an online Lemonade Stand a few months ago? That sounds so crazy. . .why it just may work! (sorry I''m in a goofy mood tonight)

But the idea you were actually talking about would be awesome, too. Shareware. . .I hope? If it even had better graphics than Pirates! Gold, I just might delete Pirates! off my hard drive. . . no, not really.

I think it would work really well if you emphasized the gritty atmosphere in everything, from the music to maybe a radar that overheats if you go over 65 mph

And one thing every game of this type seems to do wrong is "down-times" during travel. It is good for emphasizing the vast spaces between cities, if thats what you''re going for, but at least give the player something to do during that time! Also, I think its enough if you convey the time the trip takes through a change in the date. Like in movies- its enough to make us go "woah, that''s a really long time" w.out having to sit through the entire boring car ride. Since you''re talking arcade combat the whole trip, I would put your cities at a 5 min. or so driving distance from each other, on average. Its kind of obvious, but I''ve seen too many otherwise great games flub this that I''ve got to mention it.

If you see the Buddha on the road, Kill Him. -apocryphal

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Original post by Dak Lozar

Yea I agree Wavi (if I can call you that, my family calls me Davy).

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LOL! Sure!

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What I have in mind is a similar to a space trader only closer to the ground. Here is the jist of the game;

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I''ve always thought a planet bound version would be cooler, as space is so empty and lacking in terms of terrain.

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The year is 2090 (only 90 years away) trains have been outlawed due to the invention of hover vehicles. So how are goods shipped? Via modern tractor trailors. These machines are everybit as lame as the tractor trailors of today save the fact that they are equiped with cannons and missles. Why? Because the world is in chaos and pirates are around every corner, waiting to hijak your goods. The game is played just like Elite, but as I said the locale is earth.

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As backstory goes, I wouldn''t make trains outlawed. That doesn''t sound right. How about a nice, limited nuclear war that has destroyed a lot of infrastructure? Hover vehicles could have been just coming out when it happened, and now they''re indispensible. ''Course you don''t need a big war, you could just have global chaos and collapse in an age where hover was standard and tracks were long obsolete. (Just to be anal, what happened to global shipping, and aircraft??!?! )

BTW, there was an old novel called Hard Wired (?) where one of the main characters was a hovertruck runner into smuggling. Earth lost a war to orbital powers, and as a result much of the land was bombarded with asteroid craters, so his rig was indespensible.

quote:

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Additionaly you can hire drivers to work for your fleet. This is where the business aspect of the game comes into play. The vehicles need to be maintianed and contracts negotiated etc... so, I think the game won''t be your typical spreadsheet business sim. In fact, if you choose, you don''t even have to hire drivers or buy more vehicles, you can play in the contemporary manner.

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You make it, I wanna play it! This could be like a favorite old game of mine, Autoduel. I''d like to see something that handled like the vehicles in Grand Theft Auto, but with a bigger playing field and the ability to travel to multiple cities.

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Ideals, thoughts?

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-Outfit / customize your rig. Trade speed for armor, or fuel for ammo.

-Different chassis that handle differently (like the cars in Grand Theft Auto)

-Different provinces, different routes. No map data for some parts of the country (lost after the Fall)

-Different laws in each province. Hallucinogenics are fine in the Republic of Texas, but outlawed in Calzonia.

-Each city has at least one unique commodity. Some cities have hidden commodities, and you have to do a mission or something before you get access to them.

-Random maps

-Contracts that have time limits. You can check your map before you accept, though, to see if you even have a chance to get there on time. But it would be about how fast you could drive through over messed up terrain. There would be severe penalties for failure (maybe even physical, rather than financial, if dealing with the Syndicate )


I''d spend a lot of time thinking about competition, btw. How do you build a successful shipping company? How does the compeition respond to you? What are there ways to beat your competitors? What AI do they have? I say all this because a big part of the game will be competiting. You could even implement a kind of derby combat with opponent rigs, where you try to drive them off the road our outrace them before they reach a city you want to trade / sell at.

(This is a kick a$$ idea!)

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Just waiting for the mothership...

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Original post by Anonymous Poster.

Dak- I always want to call him Wavy Gravy, but I think he'd beat me up.

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Alright, that's it mister. Let's step outside!!!!

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At first, I thought you were considering a straight business sim, and while I don't know if it would fit *at all* w/ your MMOG, something like that overlaid even a game like EverQuest could really rock, giving people something to do other than PK. Were you the one talking about an online Lemonade Stand a few months ago? That sounds so crazy. . .why it just may work! (sorry I'm in a goofy mood tonight)

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Yes, this is funky cool! Could even work as a very good race / chase type of gameplay, with players making deals and contracts on the side.

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But the idea you were actually talking about would be awesome, too. Shareware. . .I hope? If it even had better graphics than Pirates! Gold , I just might delete Pirates! off my hard drive. . . no, not really.

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Whew. I was afraid I was gonna have to tell Sid!

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And one thing every game of this type seems to do wrong is "down-times" during travel. It is good for emphasizing the vast spaces between cities, if thats what you're going for, but at least give the player something to do during that time! Also, I think its enough if you convey the time the trip takes through a change in the date. Like in movies- its enough to make us go "woah, that's a really long time" w.out having to sit through the entire boring car ride. Since you're talking arcade combat the whole trip, I would put your cities at a 5 min. or so driving distance from each other, on average. Its kind of obvious, but I've seen too many otherwise great games flub this that I've got to mention it.

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Great point. I think whatever travel length you have has to be active. Just cruising can be very boring. Truckers will tell you it gets old fast (which is why so many do drugs... but that's another story)

Just a thought: Gameplay could even be a bit like Spy Hunter... yeah... Spy Hunter meets Grand Theft Auto in hovercrafts with trading!!!!! Alright, if you don't want the idea Dak I'll take it!!!!


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Just waiting for the mothership...

Edited by - Wavinator on November 6, 2000 9:01:56 PM

quote:

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Original post by Dak Lozar

The year is 2090 (only 90 years away) trains have been outlawed due to the invention of hover vehicles. So how are goods shipped? Via modern tractor trailors. These machines are everybit as lame as the tractor trailors of today save the fact that they are equiped with cannons and missles. Why? Because the world is in chaos and pirates are around every corner, waiting to hijak your goods. The game is played just like Elite, but as I said the locale is earth.

Additionaly you can hire drivers to work for your fleet. This is where the business aspect of the game comes into play. The vehicles need to be maintianed and contracts negotiated etc... so, I think the game won''t be your typical spreadsheet business sim. In fact, if you choose, you don''t even have to hire drivers or buy more vehicles, you can play in the contemporary manner.

Ideals, thoughts?

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Will your rig conform to the DOT''s (Dept. of Transportation) regulations, or the equivilant of the DOT in 2090? Are you going to make it a habit of dodging the scales or play the straight arrow?

What about the portable scales? Are you up on their favorite sites for setting them up? Maybe you could get the lowdown at the local truck outpost. While you''re there, maybe you could find out who''s running what, which routes are in good repair, and how good those new-fangled guns really are.

Are you running contraband or legal freight? Do the banditos in the desert know what your load is, and if they do, do they want it? It''d be a shame to break down out there in the middle of the night...

Have you got the latest fuel tax sticker on the side of your rig? You wouldn''t want to get pulled over for a violation like that when you''ve got illegal goods on board.

So is your fleet mostly flatbed, semi, tanker, or reefer? Make sure your load is tarped for those summer thunderstorms...

Have you customized your rig to the max? Are you hot to get your hands on one of those new Cat propulsion systems? Maybe they''re in limited supply and you''ve got to pay through the nose for one.

Damn, don''t you hate those customers who claim their shipment only weighs so much, and you find out your pushing 6000 pounds over GVW when you float through the first scale. Weight doesn''t matter in a hovering vehicle? Sure it does. It means you can''t turn as quickly because of your mass, and you can''t hover as effectively. Very unsafe. I''m sure some hardass patrol man will let you know in a hurry about that.

Are you one serious business man with the sharpest looking fleet around, or are you a starving one truck fleet man with the crappiest sorriest hulk of a POS you can imagine.

Port of Entries, man. Which states (or territories, or whatever in 2090) have ''em? You''ve got to pay fees when you cross state lines. Or do you know the back ways in?

Fueling stations. The price of fuel between towns is awful. Maybe that extra tank would be nice to have.

You know, you could nake some extra cash doing hazmat. Hazardous materials that is. You do have a hazardous endorsement, don''t you? Just be sure you placard your truck when you''ve got a hazardous load. Not a good time to be getting in a gunfight with a competitive trucker. Flammable, corrosive, explosive, poison, compressed gas...

Are you a transportation broker? Do you you farm out a lot of your work to other contractors? Are they reliable? Do they get the job done on time? Can you pull a profit doing this? If you can, you can increase your workload. Make more money...

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Original post by Anonymous Poster.

Dak- I always want to call him Wavy Gravy, but I think he''d beat me up.

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Hehehe too funny.

quote:

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At first, I thought you were considering a straight business sim, and while I don''t know if it would fit *at all* w/ your MMOG, something like that overlaid even a game like EverQuest could really rock, giving people something to do other than PK. Were you the one talking about an online Lemonade Stand a few months ago? That sounds so crazy. . .why it just may work! (sorry I''m in a goofy mood tonight)

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Nope, I was not the Lemonade Stand creator

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But the idea you were actually talking about would be awesome, too. Shareware. . .I hope? If it even had better graphics than Pirates! Gold , I just might delete Pirates! off my hard drive. . . no, not really.

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Umm, yea at this point I think anything that I do personally will continue to be shareware. I haven''t finished a game since ''98, mostly because of other commitments and I''m itching to do this one. As I said it''s been in my notebook for some time.

quote:

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I think it would work really well if you emphasized the gritty atmosphere in everything, from the music to maybe a radar that overheats if you go over 65 mph

And one thing every game of this type seems to do wrong is "down-times" during travel. It is good for emphasizing the vast spaces between cities, if thats what you''re going for, but at least give the player something to do during that time! Also, I think its enough if you convey the time the trip takes through a change in the date. Like in movies- its enough to make us go "woah, that''s a really long time" w.out having to sit through the entire boring car ride. Since you''re talking arcade combat the whole trip, I would put your cities at a 5 min. or so driving distance from each other, on average. Its kind of obvious, but I''ve seen too many otherwise great games flub this that I''ve got to mention it.

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You hit the nail on the head AP I have been considering a couple different methods of travel. And have decided that this is what I am going to implement:
1) 10 years after the development of hover vehicles the slipstream road was created. The roads which were nolonger of any use to hover craft were outfitted with this slipstream technology. This allows hovercraft to travel at up to four times the max speed of the vehicle.

So, with that in mind, you get your rig on the slipstream highway and if your max speed is 400 mp/h (643 kp/h) then you can travel approximately 1600 mp/h (2574 kp/h).
I am placing metric units in here for two reasons, 1)I prefer metric units of measure 2)My game world has finally converted to this system of measure. I suppose I should list the mph in parenthesis
This particular vehicle would be one of the starter vehicles as the more costly vehicles can travel at speeds of around 1200 mp/h (1931 kp/h) which at fout times this speed can get you where you need to be fairly quick! A little over one half hour to cross the continental united states (NY->CALIFORNIA) is pretty quick and within reason, 90 years from now.
But is this fast enough? 45 minutes of realtime to get from NY to CA? Maybe I can bump the numbers a bit... or maybe they should stand. The issue here isn''t believability it is playability. If I crank the slipstream up to say five time the max speed of the vehicle that would bring our NY to CA trip down to 30 mins and six times would give us around 22 mins. 10 would produce a believalbe and (is it playable) time of 15 mins.

Oh well, this is but one of the issues that I hope to nail down within the next few days.

Dave "Dak Lozar"Loeser

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Original post by Wavinator
As backstory goes, I wouldn''t make trains outlawed. That doesn''t sound right. How about a nice, limited nuclear war that has destroyed a lot of infrastructure? Hover vehicles could have been just coming out when it happened, and now they''re indispensible. ''Course you don''t need a big war, you could just have global chaos and collapse in an age where hover was standard and tracks were long obsolete. (Just to be anal, what happened to global shipping, and aircraft??!?! )

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Yes, I agree... outlawed doesn''t work to well. I like your suggestion... can I use it?
Global shipping and aircraft? Hmmm good question. Just off the top of my head (''cause I haven''t thought about this much) how about some atmospheric condition such as meteorites that disable aircraft from flying at high altitudes... something like that.

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BTW, there was an old novel called Hard Wired (?) where one of the main characters was a hovertruck runner into smuggling. Earth lost a war to orbital powers, and as a result much of the land was bombarded with asteroid craters, so his rig was indespensible.

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Damn... thats it... atmospheric conditions it is! LOL

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You make it, I wanna play it! This could be like a favorite old game of mine, Autoduel. I''d like to see something that handled like the vehicles in Grand Theft Auto, but with a bigger playing field and the ability to travel to multiple cities.

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Cool! I plan on making it... I plan to use the US and Western Europe as the areas that you can travel to. Of course by the time I finish, I may decide that the entire globe may be possilbe. I think that it would be cool to run from L.A. to N.Y with computer chips and then from N.Y to Capetown with food or something like that.
Of course with my last post... (slipstream) it would be difficult to travel such great distances. That''s why I''m contemplating a choice of where you want to start from... US or Europe.

Any of you designers (programmers) out there know any 3d programmers looking to do something cool? Oh hell, I may be forced to do the 3d myself


Dave "Dak Lozar"Loeser

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Original post by bishop_pass
Will your rig conform to the DOT''s (Dept. of Transportation) regulations, or the equivilant of the DOT in 2090? Are you going to make it a habit of dodging the scales or play the straight arrow?

[...snip...]

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Wow, sounds like you have an intimate knowledge of the trucking industry

Thanks for all of your ideals... they are terrific. My favorite one is:

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Fueling stations. The price of fuel between towns is awful. Maybe that extra tank would be nice to have.

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But, I''m unsure that I can use it... with my slipstream ideal. Note to self... work this into the game



Dave "Dak Lozar"Loeser