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Original post by Kylotan I find it quite interesting that there are several games here that I really think have serious design flaws (Baldur's Gate, FF7, Tekken 3, Daggerfall). There's something to be learned from most games, even if it's just how not to do something.

I think it's hard to find any game (or novel for that matter) that doesn't have a major design flaw somewhere; especially an innovative game, because when you're doing something experimental it's hard to anticipate what it's going to feel like to the player, and once you get to the beta-testing phase some flaws are too deeply rooted in the design to fix, especially if it's a commercial project where you're trying to make a release date.


So, who's going to go through this thread and helpfully collect all the suggestions into a single list, categorized by genre? ;)

BoZo - I agree, Ultima 7 is the best computer game ever made. There's plenty to be learned there, not least how not to design an interface - it put off many people who would otherwise have loved the game.

ahw - I think the Warhammer games have some of the worst rules invented. They exist merely to sell the miniatures and have been dumbed down in each successive edition to appeal to younger and younger children. The result these days is that instead of being a game of strategy it's a game of rolling a bucket of dice. (I must type this quietly as my housemate works for Games Workshop...!) And Wizards Of The Coast only really managed to buy TSR (the D+D makers) because TSR were pretty much bankrupt. Magic: The Gathering does have some good mechanics, or at least did do, before that too ended up having to cannibalise and parody itself to continue making it worth buying new cards. However I do think the intention here was to talk about computer games, although I do see your point.

King of Men - I find Civ much more playable than Europa Universalis. The balance and pacing in the latter game is incredibly poor. I have heard that it's less of a problem in the sequel however.

sunandshadow - I see your point, but the games I mentioned were all sequels except for Baldur's Gate, which also didn't feature anything innovative (unless I missed it). I think it's possible to be noticeably innovative and yet still deliver a quality experience, so I don't think that significantly flawed games deserve to make it to the top 10.

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Original post by sunandshadow So, who's going to go through this thread and helpfully collect all the suggestions into a single list, categorized by genre? ;)

This could take a while [lol] I assume you were at least half joking, but I think it could be useful.

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Original post by mhamlin Quote: Original post by TechnoGoth 6) Quest for glory 1-4 – PC - These enjoyable games are an excellent blend of adventure, rpg, and humor. With 3 different character types each possessing there own path through the game and methods for overcoming obstacles, make a lot more then you standard adventure game or rpg. Add to this the fact that you can bring your character along from one game into the next and you have one of the most enjoyable game series ever made. Seconded. I'm a huge QFG fan--definately some of the finest games Sierra ever made (perhaps the finest?). In fact, I recently replayed 1-3, and am in the process of replaying QFG4. Man, those were damn well made games.

Thirded.. Escpecially the first two in EGA version. Point and click might be easier, but I personally liked to type what I wanted the character to do and it didn't have the pixel-hunting of more modern adventure games. The VGA remake of QFG1 wasn't as enjoyable. The mix between Adventure, RPG and action is great, and I've yet to see a RPG combat system I've liked better than the one in these games. The only disadvangage about it is that when you fight multiple enemies, only 1 step forward and fight at a time, so it's not very realistic. Also, it's not team based, but in my opinion that's not really a bad thing. In KOTOR2 I have to spend at least as much time stopping my team-mates from running headfirst into trouble, so I pretty much find it easier to park them away from the combat zone and go solo.

BTW, I managed to get 525 (or so) points out of 500 in QFG1 (EGA). Beat that! [smile]

On a list of games all game designers should play there should be at least one game of each kind.. I don't see anyone mentioning plane/space-fighter simulation games. My preference is the Wing Commander series (Esp 2, 3 and 4), and to a lesser degree Starlancer, but that's mainly because I enjoy games with good stories better than others.

I'll also give a vote to the Ultima series (esp. 7). They're absolutely huge, has good stories, and offer a lot of freedom (making things, robbing the bank and having sex comes to mind [smile]). When you consider that U7 was about 5MB and came out in the early 90's, 50+ hours of gameplay with ok graphics (great for it's time) is pretty impressive.

Went through the thread up until here and summed it all up. Alphabetically for now:

Civilisation 1
Age of Empires 2
Alpha Centauri
Ape Escape
Archon
Asteroids
Baldur's Gate
Barbarian
Beatmania IIDX
Bejeweled
Beyond Good & Evil
Black & White
Blackthorne
Boulder Dash
Breath of Fire 2
Carmageddon
Castelvania (all)
Chrono Cross
Chrono Trigger
Civilisation 3
Command & Conquer
Contra 3
Counter Strike
Creatures 2/3
Dance Dance Revolution
Dangerous Dave
Darklands
Deus Ex
Diablo 2
Do DonPachi
Doom
Dragon Warrior 4
Duck Hunt
Duke Nukem 3D
Dungeon Keeper
Earthbound
Elder Scrolls (all)
EVO: The Search for Eden
Eye of the Beholder
Fable
Fallout 2
Fallout 2
Fallout Tactics
Final Fantasy (all)
Gex Enter the Gecho
Goldeneye
Gothic
Gran Turismo
Grim Fandango
GTA 3: Vice City
Half-Life
Halo 1 / 2
Harvest Moon (any)
Heroes of Might and Magic 4
Hotshots Golf
Ice Hockey
Ikaruga
Jedi Knight
Jumper Redux
Katamari Damacy
Knights of valour
Knight of the Old Republic
Lands of Lore 1
Legends of Kyrandia
Lemmings
Little Big Adventure 1 / 2
Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring
Lurking Horror
Maniac Mansion
Mario 64
Mario Kart
Mario Kart 64
Masters of Orion 2
MechCommander
Mechwarrior 1
Medal of Honor
Medievel: Total War
Mega man
Metal Gear Solid
Metal Slug
Metroid Prime
Monkey Island
Monster Rancher
M.U.L.E.
Mutant League Football
Myst
Myth 2
NBA Jam
Neopet
Nethack
Neverwinter Nights
Nights: Into Dreams
Oddworld
Omicron: The Nomad Soul
Oni
Orbiter
Out of this World
Pac-Man
Persona 2
Pokemon
Prince of Persia
Prince of Persia (SNES)
Project Eden
Puyo Puyo
Quake 3
Quest for Glory (1-4)
Racing Destruction Set
Ragnarok
Rainbow Six (all)
Rayman
Rez
Road Rash
Sanitarium
Shining Force 2
Sim City
Smash Bros. 2
Sonic 2/3
Spellcross
Spiderman 2
Spyro
Star Control 2
Star Wars: Republic Commando
Starcraft
Starflight
Street Fighter
Street Fighter 2
Super Bomberman
Super Donkey Kong Country
Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts
Super Mario 3
Super Metroid
System Shock
Tekken 3
Tekken 4
Tekken Tag
Tetris
The Sims ½
Thief (all)
TIE Fighter
Tony Hawk
Total Annihilation
Typing of the dead
UFO Enemy Unknown
Ultima (all)
Unreal Tournament 2004
Vagrant Story
Warcraft 2
Warcraft 3
Warcraft Adventures
Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War
Warning Forever
Wing Commander
Winning Eleven (all)
Wiz'n'Liz
Wolfenstein
World of Warcraft
Worms
Xenogears
Xenosaga
Yoshi's Island
Zangband
Zelda Link to the Past
Zelda Ocarina of Time

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Original post by rick_appleton <!–QUOTE–></td></tr></table></blockquote><!–/QUOTE–><!–ENDQUOTE–><br><br>Thanks, you've just made my job with the other thread (<a href="http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=306997">link</a>) a whole lot easier to manage. [smile]

That was the basic idea. Besides which, I'm bored :D

I'm not so sure about putting these in categories, since you'll always have games that span categories. Do you add them to both then?

For now, I'm trying to fit them into whatever they best match, and I'll put notes of crossovers. If it becomes a problem as the list grows, some other system of organisation will probably be needed, but thus far it hasn't presented a major issue. I'm planning to sub-organise the categories alphabetically once I've got a bit more done as well.

What additional information would you provide for each, in addition to:
-title
-some keywords
-link to a website (official or otherwise)
-brief summary

My 2 pennies...
In no order...

1) Super Ghosts & Ghouls -> Great shout whoever came up with that, innovative mid-air jump and very addictive. Incredibly simple.

2) Ultima Underworld -> Obviously, technically, one of 1st 3D 1st-person games, great story as always.

3) Bloodwych -> Dungeon Master rightly gets all the acclaim for this genre but Bloodwych had very clever dungeon design that used limited creatures to great effect and required no mapping as most areas were fairly segmented (similar to a hub system in a way). No need to map is a definite plus for these games.

4) Civ -> No question.

5) Elite -> For same reasons as civ really.

6) GTA3 -> Elite in a city, a great modern representation of the same values.

7) Rez -> I'm soooo glad someone mentioned this one. Spectacular and innovative.

8) NWN -> Hmm, interesting inclusion as I guess games like this are really very similar but the scope of this one is incredible. Still searching for the *perfect* adventure but the integration of the Aurora toolset with its vast set of features is another plus.

Civilization
UFO - Enemy Unknown
System Shock
Doom/Duke Nukem 3D
Subspace
Dune2/WC2/C&C
Star Control 2
Master of orion
Diablo

All blizzard's and westwood's games are worth checking out. Also like looking glass's games aswell.