Actually, Kylotan, this is what the poster wrote :

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Technogoth Partly because of some the comments on a thread about innovation in games, and partly because I think it would be helpful to people. I thought I would start this topic. What in your opinion are ten games every game designer should play? and why?

And if you ask me, I don't think one should look _just_ at computer games when there is so much untapped potential around. I am sorry but it's just plain stupid.

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Original post by Kylotan ahw - I think the Warhammer games have some of the worst rules invented. They exist merely to sell the miniatures and have been dumbed down in each successive edition to appeal to younger and younger children. The result these days is that instead of being a game of strategy it's a game of rolling a bucket of dice. (I must type this quietly as my housemate works for Games Workshop...!)

Ahah, yes, I entirely agree with you, which is why you'll notice I mention the Epic 40k game, and the roleplaying game. I can't stand the Battle and 40k.
And don't get me started about the miniatures... since initially I am a painter, I only got interested in the games as an afterthought, really. Anyway, nowadays there are some very serious competitors (for the quality of miniatures), like Confrontation, or Warzone (in Limbo at the moment, I believe) or Void, or Warmachine, gee ...

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And Wizards Of The Coast only really managed to buy TSR (the D+D makers) because TSR were pretty much bankrupt. Magic: The Gathering does have some good mechanics, or at least did do, before that too ended up having to cannibalise and parody itself to continue making it worth buying new cards.

Well, I started playing Magic more than 10 years ago, and I haven't bought a booster in, pff, quite some time now. Haven't even looked at the new edition with its brand new layout.
No, to tell you the truth I was much more interested in looking at all the new other concepts. Stuff like Vampire the Masquerade (well, based on the roleplaying game anyway), Legend of the Five Rings (the only card game I know of that was so cool they made a roleplaying game out of it!), Dark Age: Feudal Lords, Guardians (and its hilarious extensions), Kabal (based on Nephilim), Doomtrooper (based on the Warzone roleplaying game/wargame), even the recent card game version of Warhammer has its moments.

As for the TSR story, I was just making a point, eh :) Imagine if Electronic Arts had bought them, LOL... at least it stayed in the family, so to speak.

Anyway, read one of the recent game designer books (I loved Chris Crawford's, and Ernest Adams is always a great read), and I would doubt it if they disagreed with me.

Now, what about... I dunno,
The Top Ten Games That Have ALREADY Been Used To Death
Or something like that.

Please guys, open your eyes and realise there are other things that computer games around!

TechnoGoth:

"Masters of Orion" is beat hands down by "Stars!"

Stars! is the all time classic 4X game with the biggest following and die hard fans. You can still get e-mail games today quite easily. It features everything in MOO2 and arguably more. For 4X gameplay it is the best.

Kazgoroth, what I suggest looking for.

We'll the first thing that stands out to me is that planes dont move as fast as you ground troops which, if I remember right starcraft's does.

Also, they have some nice diversity of units and balance. You have footsoldiers (kbots), tanks, boats, and planes.

What is nice is that in Core Contingency, one side gets an uber unit (the krogoth); however, the other side has a unit that can stun and capture him. Then you can repair him. So if one side your are guaranteed to get that uber unit at a cost, bu the other side can get him cheaper but at much greater risk.

Your commander also has a weapon that can blow anything up, but when they CAN be killed and when the Arm's commander destroy's a Krogoth, he takes damage getting there and when the Krogoth explodes. All in all though this can help you out when people rush you early in the game.

So essentially no one unit can really win you the game. This requires more work, effort, and thinking. Theres more to look for in the game but that should be a good start.

Two sore points with total annihilation though. Poor path finding. Actually the AI in better could be better. But it was made back in '96. No upgrading the units. Albeit they already had a lot of units.

The game is best when you play against another person, as games tend to be.

Also, Cavedog, who made the game went belly up a while back. I did see a copy for sale in NY awhile back and I was shocked. $10.

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Original post by logain ummm....no one likes Total Annihilation and everyone likes Starcraft? Pfft... I like both of 'em.

I was pretty surprised to see unrestrained love for Startcraft without mention of Total Annihilation, the other "best RTS ever" that came out at just about the same time. One thing I really liked about TA: dead units can be reclaimed for resources by any construction unit. So if your attack fails to seriously damage your enemy, he'll just reclaim your dead robots and rebuild. Not only have you lost some units, but you've just fed his forces.

Also, the pathfinding was pretty bad, but only when you had more than 250 or so units. Most games don't even let you get that many.

Also, when I see a thread titled "Ten games every designer should play" I hope for a list of obscure but brilliant games, games that might not even be that great, but that contain an element of design not usually explored. Not a list of games EVERYONE has played.

Cool, now we got board games and P&P RPGs showing up...how about sports, those too are games.

Baseball, basketball, soccer (what the rest of the world calls football), vollyball...don't just play the video game versions, get out there and play them for real.

And don't forget "kids" games too...cops-n-robbers, hide and seek, tic-tac-toe, and the one game that should be on everyones list rock/paper/sissors.

Anyway here was my list from a couple pages back:

Monster Rancher - or any one of the princess maker, virtual pet type games where players care for and train a person/creature inorder to win

M.U.L.E. - the stratigy classic

Gran Turismo - another classic

Mutant League Football - for remembering that in the video game realm you can do more then simulate a real world sport.

Robotron - a classic, perfect model of intensity

Super Bomberman - a multiplayer classic

Ikaruga - because you simply must have a classy shoot-em-up...everybit pure gameplay as Tetris, minus the power-up cliches the genre has de-evolved into...others one should player are Radient Silvergun and Mars Matrix

Dig Dug - a often overlooked classic

Sim City - should be self evident

The Lurking Horror - text adventures have the best graphics ever...and thier ability to dive players into such a wide variety of subjects and settings puts the rest of the industry to shame.

Normally I dont play many rts games but with the discussion over starcraft and total annihilation I have to add my favorite, Kohan. While the single player sucked and some of the game mechanics werent well tuned the design of the units system was fantastic. Instead of individual units there were companies of 7 units that could go into formation and be controlled as a single unit completly removing micromanagement issues. These companies could also be led by a hero that could be found in the game. For resources each unit cost a certain amount to build (you could only build them whole companies at a time) but each unit required certain resources per minute. All of the recources were done per minute and if you were in the negatives (one of your main cities was taken while you had many units) then money would be taken and eventually your units would die.

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Original post by kseh If you wanted to be a writer you would want your readers to get the most out of your work. You do that by learning to write well. You learn to write well by examining the works of other authors. Especially the ones held in high regard.

No, you learn to write well by writing as much as possible and soliciting unbiased feedback - releasing your material to writers' groups (Gotham Writers Guild in NYC is one such), publishing it to independent magazines and collectives. Reading and studying the works of other writers will turn you into a poor copy rather than an interesting artist with a voice all his own.

Which is exactly the problem with video games. Far too many of them too closely emulated existing or preceeding games, which has the plus of providing familiar launch points for the veteran, but the huge minus of alienating the newcomer. And there are still way more newcomers than veterans.

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Original post by Kazgoroth I don't really like the whole concept of sports games personally - these are things you can attempt in real life - sure, you might not be as good as you could be in a game, but you'll get real benefits in fitness in addition to the fun of playing.

While you may be able to play basketball in real life, can you play in the NBA? Can you coach or manage an NBA franchise? While you can drive a car in real life, can you drive the Indy 500 or Le Mans? While you can fly a plane - a Cessna, for example - in real life, can you fly an F-18 fighter on a mission for the US Army? While you can wield a sword in real life, can you wield it in battle against orcs and ogres and demons and various other vile enemies?

What's the difference? Because I sure as hell don't see it, and I tire of the narrow-minded excuse that "you can just go outside and do it." Clearly, you can't.

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Original post by capn_midnight Quote: Original post by Oluseyi Not a single sports game on anyone's list. Interesting. Bollocks, I mentioned Tecmo Bowl, Bases Loaded, Blades of Steal, and Gran Turismo (not "Grand Turismo" or "Gran Tourismo") long before you joined the thread.

You're right, but it doesn't change anything else I said.

Here are some games that designers really need to look at for inspiration:

VS System (CCG) - Simple rules that allow for really deep and engaging gameplay. Incredible game design. A design/development team that actaully cares about what the consumers have to say. And its got super heroes.

Magic the Gathering (CCG) - I cant vouch for the game now but back when i used to play (about 9 or 10 years ago) it was great for the same reasons that i mentioned for the VS system, only instead of superheroes it had mages and dragons.

Star Chamber (PC) - Takes gameplay features from board games and CCGs and successfully combines them into a simple yet deep gameplay experiance.

XCOM: UFO Defense (PC) - What an amazing game. So deep its not even funny. Turn based combat that actually creates a bit of tension and occasionally startles you. Go play this if you havent already.

Final Fantasy Tactics (PS1) - Another amazing game. Cusomizable characters. Cool abilities and super deep combat. Three dimensional battle field that was as much a dynamic in combat as the characters were. If it had a multiplayer mode it would be perfect.

Street Fighter 2 Turbo (Various) - Capcom has YET to produce a better fighting game. Interesting characters that played very different from one another. Aproachable yet deep fighting system. Near perfect play balance.

Castlevania: SotN (PS1) - Side scrolling perfection. Period. Weapons have secret moves, spells with street fighter like inputs, two huge explorable castles, secrets galore, etc...

13 Dead End Drive (Board Game) - Wow, was this game fun. May not get any awards for anything and it was time consuming to set up, but man was it a joy to play with a good group of people.

Heroclix/Mage Knight (Miniature Board Game) - Why balance a character to some standard of characters (like fighting games have to) when you could instead justifly them to a point system instead? Rules problems notwithstanding, this game has some design ideas with great potential. And its got Super heroes.

Tomb Raider 1 (PS1) - While the graphics are quite herrendous the exploration and puzzle solving themes are solid. Too bad the later games are so horrible...

Zelda, any except for part 2 (Various) - Gameplay perfection. Exploration, puzzle solving, fighting, rpg elements, these games have it all. I feel sorry for anyone who hasn't experianced the brilliance of this series of games.

Metroid, any (Various) - Same as above.

Mario 3 (NES) - This game is just as relevant today as it was when it was released, and just as fun. Even after so much time you'd be hard pressed to name a platformer thats better. Here's the sad thing: i dont think there ever will be.

The Squaresoft golden age games (Chrono Trigger, FF4-FF6, etc...) - Great games that really show how to have great gameplay in a genre that generally focuses on story instead.

Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain (PS1) - Definitaly not because of its derivative and simple gameplay but instead because of the way it tells an incredibly cool story integrated into its gameplay and its great voice acting (a rare achievment in the game industry).

Super Smash Bros. 1 & 2 (N64 and Gamecube) - You might think that this is a relatively simple party fighting game, that is until you spend a couple hours hooked into it. Another example of simple game design that is incredibly deep in execution. I wish more fighting games were like this.

Twisted Metal Black (PS2) - Car combat at its best. Special moves, unique super moves, stellar graphics, this game has it all. Now if it only had the level design of vigilante 8 it would be perfect.

War of the Monsters (PS2) - Its too bad that so many people missed out on this gem. Incredibly fun game with a unique split screen system and FULLY destructable environments.

Beyond Good & Evil (PS2) - Mature themes handled in an elegant way, all with a strong female (fully clothed) protagonist. This was a great game and its really a shame that it was virtually ignored in retail. See my comments on Zelda for why this game is so good.

I know that was more than 10 but ah well.

Here are some examples of games or features that DONT need to be copied or studied:

Fighting games without online play - I refuse to buy another fighting game without online play. Period. Ok, maybe not period b/c im gonna buy Tekken 5 but after that, Period!

More Cinema then Gameplay (MGS1-3 in particular) - I recently rented MGS3, turned it on, and then proceeded NOT play the game for about 15 minutes. How silly is that? Did i rent a movie or a game?

Strategy game without multiplayer support - If it doesn't have some kind of multiplayer support it just got relegated to "rental" status.

FPS games with the same feature set as the last 10 FPS games - How many versions of Medal of honor are they gonna release?

Sports games with no real innovations - I love football, but am i the only one that notices EA is selling the same game every year for full price?

RPG's where i have to go to a "Battle screen" to fight - This design feature is so outdated.

Thoughts, comments?

Peace.

To reiterate a previous poster, I believe the board game Go should be included within the list.

Go is a strategy game similar to chess, while looking more like othello.

Go has very few rules. [essentially: Black plays first. Stones surrounded are captured. The player with the most empty space surrounded wins. (and the rule of ko)] It's noteworthy, that despite these very few rules, the game quite deep and is 'unsolvable' by computers. Futher, computer AI for the game is currently, and for the forseeable future worse than any master level human. It also is debatably the oldest game still played, clocking in at around 4000 years.

Perhaps not the greatest games ever, but Deadly Rooms of Death, IVAN and Jumper Two are interesting games indeed.