I think that if you are implying that we remove the poor excuses for NPCs that we have now, then it comes up with another problem. If you are intending to tell a story, then you would have to do so through cutscenes or (like myst) messages left on the ground. For people who have read Fiests books, remember when Pug went to a desolate world to save Ganima? He had to figure everything out for himself, and there were only a few things around. He figured out how to use magic and also figured out how to talk with the glyphs (forgive my memory, but it was a long time ago that I read it... I am nearly up to it again).
Anyway, an NPCless game would probably be suited to a puzzle solving game, which then would be useful in Naz''s story-less game. I think that the combination would work.
As for me helping with removing NPC''s from games - I think it would be a conflict of interest.
They have no NPCs (except monsters). They basically have real players playing teachers who teach players about the game and give them stuff. I didn't play the game very long, but it seems like the idea had potential.
Actually, Silver, are you specifically talking about multiplayer or single player...or just games in general?
I think NPCs play drastically different roles in single vs. multiplayer games
"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.
Edited by - Nazrix on November 1, 2000 6:05:24 PM
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi
Yeah, in single they hint to the story, or tell it. In MM they just trade and occasionally give out quests (they do this in single too).
No, I haven''t played Underlight, but being a bit strapped for cash, I am unable to get my hands on much. When I do get some money together I will be forking out on 3DSMax anyway Maybe with some [ex-]RPG[-ish]''s along with it
Anyway... Even in single player you can have a world devoid of life. I would like to see a myst style RPG[-ish] game. There are no people, just clues everywhere. You have to discern what you have to achieve and how you are to achieve it. Make it that the whole world is being held captive somewhere (or something like that) and you must find a way of bringing them back...
Well, Underlight is free for 30 days plus it''s a free download (like 25mgs though). I couldn''t really get into it but I respect their idea to try something new.
In my personal opinion, I agree with dwarfsoft. I would like to see deeper NPCs before throwing them out. I think deep NPCs offer more than no NPCs, but that''s just my opinion.
"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi
To stick completely with the idea of an NPC-less MMOG, think about a couple of things.
dwarfsoft mentioned something that I think needs to be looked at: Why do you have NPCs in the first place? Why do they do, and why does it have to be done that way?
Take the shopkeeper for instance. He acts as more than just the trade site, even if he does nothing but sell items. For a fantasy RPG, he fits into the world fiction (he''s expected), and he makes the world a bit less lonely.
But you could just as easily replace it with something magical or, for future RPGs, automated. The automated item dispensers in System Shock worked fine for this.
NPCs often serve not just as elements of story, but as dispensers of information, virtual companions, and service workers.
I''m a bit nervous about the idea of players becoming shopkeepers and blacksmiths. From the feedback I''ve gotten here I don''t see a lot of enthusiasm for exploring the nuts and bolts of nontraditional roles (doctor, engineer, bank robber). So I have even less hope for more pedestrian roles like baker or tailor. I know Ultima Online forced you to do these activities, but there was no game there. Just gathering required items and clicking.
If it were me, I''d make a world whose world fiction supported teleporting. VR is a bit too nebulous to grasp (in my view). The world would be filled with ancient alien ruins, and people would be "gating" in to study, explore, and maybe get rich quick.
Much of the game would involve negotiating traps, exploring the environment, and fighting off the biomechanical nightmares that guard the place. Services would all be automated, and players might even have to figure out how to get them working to change the environment (i.e., need ammo? better get that nanoreplicator online! need air? better get those filters up and running).
A fun part of the game would be fitting together alien artifacts to create services. For ex., you could get components to make a building more secure, and provide a makeshift hotel. Or you could pull together defenses, and make a bunker, or an armored bank. Players then could have an investment online and off, and have to think about both what could happen to them while playing and after they log out.
-------------------- Just waiting for the mothership...
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
dude I''m telling you guys my ape idea is all you need, unless you have some sort of plot you want to put in your game. What you do is you go to the wild ape tribes and steal their eggs (yes these apes lay eggs). You bring them home and give them to your Clan leader. He has a spell that taints the egg, instead of being gray it is now your team color. The ape that hatches has fur in your team color. It will obey any commands you give it, but there are only like half a dozen "follow" "carry" "work" and so forth. You have one follow you to the work area and tell it to work. It starts working and produces goods which it just throws in a pile for people to take. It you put it in a mine it mines metal. If you put it in a armor making place it makes armor from metal. Of course items wear out, otherwise there would be no need to make more. Also there would be like 20 unique products and it would be impossible for your empire to make more than half a dozen, trade would be very important.
So you''d have players grabbing stuff from their shops and running off to trade it with another empire. Opposing teams of course will set ambushes along important trade routes. The rest of the game is fun enough that there is no need for monsters or NPCs who can talk. Monsters are just other players, and instead of having quest giving NPCs you have a leader to report to. The game would run three hours a day at the same time every day. So if you play the full three hours you don''t miss a thing. Even if you only play an hour or two you are able to be there for most of it. It wouldn''t just be endless killing either (there would be a lot of killing though, people like that) there would be a lot of running and hiding, and bargaining, betrayal, it just goes on and on, you don''t need significant NPCs. Shopkeepers aren''t needed either if you design a dynamic trade and resource system based on territorial control and interdependance.
Why hasn''t anyone mentioned System Shock (2)? The only "NPCs" are robots and mutants, and the story is advanced via e-mails and old voice records. The original reason why they didn''t include NPCs in SS was because they didn''t think multiple-choice or linear dialog was good enough solution for communication.
hehe, i was just thinking the same thing reading through the thread...re SS2...good that i finished reading
Here''s some ideas about System Shock 2...guys, I hate to admit i''m a chicken, but that game was scary. lonely. and gruesome. just walking down the hallways, and the sounds of "we are, we are, we ARE!" sending shivers down my spine. ARGH!
i think we need NPCs. We need them badly. But we have to advance their technology first, as you ppl said. That we cannot do by flinching from the challenge, like the guys who programmed SS2 did. I do think it''s a great game. But this atmosphere...i don''t know. I hate it when it''s both scary and lonely. Can''t imagine people getting kicks from that.
The biggest problem with making more complex NPC AI in MMORPGs is that every extra CPU cycle used by the AI code is multiplied by all the NPCs in the game world. This adds up to a lot of extra hardware needed to support the game which cuts into the game developer''s bottom line. This combined with the fact that present MMORPGs don''t even have _enought_ NPCs to make the game world seem fully inhabited makes it kinda hard to concider better AI.
-Daedalus
DM's Rules:Rule #1: The DM is always right.Rule #2: If the DM is wrong, see rule #1.
Maybe with some [ex-]RPG[-ish]''s along with it 
