I always like Wavinator posts.

It'd be nice to see some other extras come along with your wanted/notoriety level. The one, major addition I could see from this is the addition of Bounty Hunters. So, you may have the law enforcement people chasing you and indeed you'd be able to escape safely away into the underground. However, the underground (safehouse, what-have-you) would not be safe from bounty hunters, perhaps people employed by the law agencies, perhaps not. Bounty hunters would persue you with more force, sometimes making you submit to the law in order to shake them.

To counter the idea of bounty hunters, you could perhaps 'bribe' them to lose you buying you some extra time until another one finds you. I'd also like to see ways of losing your police record, maybe missions that have you infiltrating the law agencies and trashing their systems, or providing the player a way to change certain traits about themselves that leaves them unrecognised by the law.

As for safehouses, again - perhaps you could buy your way into such a place, perhaps you'd need a certain level of infamy or amount of respect from the criminal world. I'd certainly like to see being a criminal as another viable game opportunity, so rather than become limiting to the player you can open up new routes that wouldn't have been possible with such a clean record.

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Original post by Wavinator So your take is that a premise like in Farscape or The Fugitive, where the main character(s) is/are always hunted and get into adventures as they're running away wouldn't work? Do you think that's because some gamers want to be ultra-powerful and dominate (and that running is a submissive behavior)?

It's funny that you mention Farscape, I actually didnt think about it at all on this one.
You see, the way you describe it, you are Public Enemy number One, i.e. Bin Laden trying to go on holidays around the world, or something.
A situation like John Crichton is much more similar to that of Odysseus, travelling all over the Mediterranean, meeting strange people, and only really ever wanting to go home.

What's the difference ? The pacing, I believe.

For what you describe, I am thinking of _Enemy of the State_, _Conspiracy Theory_ (that movie with Mel Gibson), _the Pelican Brief_, _Twelve Monkeys_, the Fugitive (of course), _Nick of Time_ (the movie that pioneered the concept of _24_ IMHO), oh and that movie with Hugh Grant, _Extreme Measures_ was nice for the whole "escape to the Underground" part, too.
The first half of the first season of _24_ where Jack is supposed to assassinate the President, etc.
what all those movies have in common is the tension, the constant threat above the hero's head of being captured, with dire consequences.
What they also have in common is that they don't last that long (with the exception of _24_ but that's precisely why this show is so freaking amazing)
because it's just too much tension to keep it up for hours at a time.

Can you see where I am going ? If you had a _whole game_ with this level of tension, it just would be too much. Imagine playing Prince of Persia (the first) for like, 40 hours instead of the few minutes you were given (was it 2 hours?)

Oh and for the love of all things sacred, no random spawning of security forces on your way, a la GTA / Driver. I mean, I am escaping on the motorway, and suddenly the whole thing is blocked with police cars ... that never even chased me or overtook me in the first place! Puuuuulease [sick]

Then again, if you are a badass such as Riddick, I guess things could be a little different :-P

_Most Wanted_ comes to mind, namely the part where Wayans is recognized by a passer-by and is then running down the street with (quite literally) the *entire* city chasing him on foot.

Meh, another busy week where I post and then can't get to the replies... sorry folks...

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Original post by A Guy from CRO What I meant to say is that the game (as I see it) would be sort of a game of hide and seek game, cat and mouse game. Basically you are outwitting the enemy to escape. Its not fun to outwit a cheating opponent, its fun to outwit a SMART opponent, that's what gives you a sense of competence. Otherwise you might as well just make it plain GTA with wanted level (i.e. constant shooting, jumping, dodging, fast driving. Don't take me wrong, I'd like to see those things in a game but only, say 20%-30% of the time).

I think what's missing here is that for you to even be able to outwit a smart opponent you need rules to make up the hide and seek part. By just saying AI we miss out on the nitty-gritty details of what that AI has to process. That's what I was hoping to get a few hints on here: By what rules would the AI run? How does it get your location? How do you know who to trust, etc.

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Why end in an airport. You landed in foreign country by tricking the airport security and misleading the agent at your tail but now you have to avoid spies that were given a directive to kill at sight. How do you know that the guy in the other countries secret agency is not a mole?

Well, as you said, there has to be some sort of acknowledgement of victory, unless you're supposed to be living in secret forever.

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Well I think you need a goal. While watching a movie or a series you feel for the main character. The main charcter is running away to save its life even if it means running forever, its the primal instinct. Emphasis on feeling for HIM. Emphaty. When you play the game, you ARE the main character. Sure , you're running away to save your ass, but hey , all you need to do to save your ass is quit the game. Altough those adventures along the way you mentiond would make for excellent subquests or bouns levels.

Heh, that's a good observation. You're never going to be able to keep up a massive amount of tension. But that's not even what I'm worried about. I'm worried about how much strategy you can handle in trying to get out alive.

I have NEVER seen a game that would respond to you with massive, sustained force if you tried to shoot your way out. Comments like "unfair" and "unplayable" would no doubt pop up. But it certainly would be an interesting (if difficult) challenge to not be able to shoot your way out and to be so outclassed and outgunned that you'd have to use your brain.

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Original post by grekster Yeah I think the communication thing could be good, thing like communcicating through newspaper write in(like red dragon) or adverts (Beautiful Mind). If the game allowed that and the AI would or wouldnt pick up on it depending on how sutle you were.

Hah! Okay, THIS is exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for (if it's interesting to do).

Now this has a couple of components: The actual message, which may or may not be interesting or even feasble to devise from a gameplay perspective; then there is the placement part, which is probably best automatic, and then the detection element.

Take Red Dragon as an example: WE the audience knew that the cops were on the trail of the killer and that he was placing messages. The fugitive (who would be us as players in this case) didn't know.

So in game you place a message. Then what happens? There's a rendezvous set up, maybe. It could either be your contact or the cops in an ambush. But HOW would you know if it was either? Do you just make it random, in which case your skill and brains don't matter? That sounds like a bad idea.

To make this work there must be choices and risks. One possibility is the notoriety of the paper, with bigger papers more likely to be detected by the cops AND your contact? Doesn't quite make sense, but something like that.

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Situations where telling someone something could game you something in return, but it could get you in trouble if the other guy isnt trustworthy.

Some examples: Where you are going, where you will be at a certain time, who is helping you.

I'm noticing the mafia games in the forum and it's interesting to watch the tension and suspicion that arises. Maybe there could be some element for what we're talking about where you give pieces of information to people then see what happens. If you tell someone X is your contact, and then X is eliminated, it may tell you something about the person you confided in.

This part to me is more intriguing than just running and gunning. It might REALLY beef up the running and gunning part because you would be responding to this web of intrigue. You'd be in control and more responsible for the messes you'd gotten yourself into. Maybe you have to shoot it out to save your contact's life, or you have to race to get to evade the law because of something you said to somebody.

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Going back to GTA something which bugs me is how police always keep spawning just in front of you in the street. If you kept track of all the law officials and had them controlled whether you were there or not (in real terms this may be a serious performance issue but hypothetically...)

I'm really trying to explore the idea of FAIR SPAWNING. Spawning is way too useful a processing trick to ditch. In fact, your response here inspired a new thread (I know, great, just what the world needs... another Wavinator post... [lol])

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Original post by grekster Something I didnt realise before is in this your actually a good guy and the cops after you are bad (unlike GTA where youve actually done something wrong). I think this could be good as a time trial. Take it in turns to see who can survive the longest. or maybe online multiplayer last my alive and free wins?

A timed trial might be interesting for a quick multiplayer game, even a cat & mouse versus game. But right now I'm more interested in a long term experience where you deal with the strategy of escaping either after committing a crime or being framed or whatever. The reason isn't so important as are the rules.

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Original post by grekster You talk about the fluctuation of "wanted level" what would effect this?

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Original post by TheWanderer Perhaps instead of a "Wanted" level there could be a "Visibility" level, i.e. how aware is the government/police/FBI of your current location. High visibility would mean that the current area in which you are in would have high levels of security (e.g. guards, snipers, attack dogs). Lower visibility would result in a little more freedom to move about. This could promote stealth as well a constant state of paranoia :).

Wanted to combine these two because I think TheWanderer has a great idea. Visibility should actually accrue on you like radiation poisoning, conceptually speaking. Maybe this sort of idea would work:

1) Areas have a security visibility level that gets added to your person. Security is proportional to the wealth of the area, any alignments that might exist (friend or foe), and the level of force / military / police in the area. So visiting banks, posh hotels and military bases gives you a high "dose" of visibility, which takes time to wear off. A seedy hotel, corner liquor store or oppressed neighborhood would have a relatively low dosage of visibility, OTOH.

2) The map would be arranged around chokepoints of visibility centers, with key infrastructure nodes like bridges and airports being real "hotspots."

3) A change of car / clothes / identity would be a way of "washing down" after a "heavy dosage" of visibility. Here the action / run-n-gun / sneak-n-stealth elements would come into the fore, as you know you'll be fine if you can JUST get to the freakin' safehouse or whatever!

Would this work?

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Original post by Taolung I think it's also important to allow for varying degrees of security. By this, I mean that perhaps one government will have cameras, scanners, and all kinds of other high-tech toys keeping an eye out for you. In this case, it might be dangerous to even step outside, and would require a particular strategy - like disguises or hacking the monitoring systems. On the other hand, if the area is full of patrolling guards or robots, you might need to be a little more direct - high speed chases, gun fights, etc.

I REALLY like this possibility as a way of DIRECTLY affecting different security nodes. What it does is it allows you to change the map, which is almost always fun.

What I'm seeing here is a strategic portion, where you're hiding out in your hotel/sewer/abandoned junkyard and planning your strategy. Then you actually start navigating, which is the action portion, using the map you marked up as a guide (and getting onscreen waypoints).

Scouting would be an optional gameplay element: If you've got the patience, you can learn routes or vulnerabilities. Some areas would be super-high security and require either the best stealth or most forceful combat. And you'd always need some escape plan if things went south.

(I can see it now, make a game like this and you'll be accused of creating a new generation of criminals).

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Original post by evolutional It'd be nice to see some other extras come along with your wanted/notoriety level. The one, major addition I could see from this is the addition of Bounty Hunters. So, you may have the law enforcement people chasing you and indeed you'd be able to escape safely away into the underground. However, the underground (safehouse, what-have-you) would not be safe from bounty hunters, perhaps people employed by the law agencies, perhaps not. Bounty hunters would persue you with more force, sometimes making you submit to the law in order to shake them.

Love the idea, but here's what's needed: How do you as the player know the difference between the next move a bounty hunter is going to make and what the police are restricted to?

Zones is one nice way of doing it, perhaps. For any highly dangerous zone, such as a high-crime area, warzone or abandoned badlands: Police presence starts dropping off. Not so for bounty hunters.

So how do bounty hunters track you? I'm seeing this as either more random or you record the player's moves and concentrate bounty hunters around the most frequented locations. Or, maybe the bounty hunters abstractly break the city up and relentlessly investigate it section by section? Or a mix of both?

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To counter the idea of bounty hunters, you could perhaps 'bribe' them to lose you buying you some extra time until another one finds you.

How about not just bribe them as a possibility or KO/kill them off to buy some time, but what about misdirecting? Let's say there are places you need to go to get stuff (like more ammo or a new ID); for extra bucks (based on the size of your bounty) you could add a bonus to have the facility owner either keep quiet or misdirect the bounty hunters to a section you KNOW you won't be in.

This makes the whole visibility concept VERY important. Whether you're being tracked is going to partly be based on how popular a bounty you are and how densely occupied the area is.

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I'd also like to see ways of losing your police record, maybe missions that have you infiltrating the law agencies and trashing their systems, or providing the player a way to change certain traits about themselves that leaves them unrecognised by the law.

I really like this concept. If you've got the guts to break into police HQ and plant a worm or destroy records, you deserve to be clean (provided you can escape, heh!)

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As for safehouses, again - perhaps you could buy your way into such a place, perhaps you'd need a certain level of infamy or amount of respect from the criminal world. I'd certainly like to see being a criminal as another viable game opportunity, so rather than become limiting to the player you can open up new routes that wouldn't have been possible with such a clean record.

Okay, what I really like about what you propose is the whole money = power / flexibility element. It gives you a hard limit. If bullets / guns / cars / IDs / whatever all cost money as does various levels of safety, then you have this harsh tension (read risk) between where you hole up and how you play the game. You're in control of your destiny based on how you manage your cash and play the stealth / gunning / bribing aspects.

So getting cash, whether you're a good guy or a bad guy, comes to define your gameplay as surely as health does in a normal shooter. What I'd like to see in response are cash dispensers: People and places that have money.

Imagine:

-On the shady side of town, you've got runners and drug dealers who have cash you can pick-pocket or outright rob.

-Stores certain have cash. Better yet, day and night cycles for some requiring two totally different skill sets (stealth when closed, force when opened).

-Banks / armored cars have lots of cash, but also harsher risks.

-Your average joe has money, but less the more lightly defended / easier to pick pocket. In fact, make it so that everyone has cash proportional to how useful they are in game.

-Cars / items can be lifted or stolen

-Allies can periodically give you free drops of cash provided you can simply hold out long enough

I think this sort of tension with the money would be a challenge to balance, BUT balance may not be all that important if you can hide out. Now if hiding is real-time it's bad if it draws out too long (or is it, as that just gives you freedom to plan your next move?)

So either you need to be able to skip time or those chasing you need to keep up the pressure. Not sure here.

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Original post by ahw It's funny that you mention Farscape, I actually didnt think about it at all on this one.

LOL, after you urged me to watch it?!?!?!

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You see, the way you describe it, you are Public Enemy number One, i.e. Bin Laden trying to go on holidays around the world, or something. A situation like John Crichton is much more similar to that of Odysseus, travelling all over the Mediterranean, meeting strange people, and only really ever wanting to go home.

Well, both could work, but one would be more intense than the other. If you're more like Crichton, you know you're being chased but it takes a background to the current pressure or mission you encounter as you're running.

What I'm really trying to dig out here, regardless, are what are the elements and rules make which make the chase even possible? What makes the chase manageable and fair from the player's point of view?

I think it's much easier to come up with specific scenarios than it is to come up with the rules governing them (hence why we have a flood of mission-based rather than more free and open games).

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Can you see where I am going ? If you had a _whole game_ with this level of tension, it just would be too much. Imagine playing Prince of Persia (the first) for like, 40 hours instead of the few minutes you were given (was it 2 hours?)

Good point, I really think any map needs cooling off / regeneration zones for this idea to work. Then YOU manage your tension level based on how deeply you go into dangerous territory.

This is akin to the safe zone area in boss fights in an action game. It gives you a chance to rest.

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Oh and for the love of all things sacred, no random spawning of security forces on your way, a la GTA / Driver. I mean, I am escaping on the motorway, and suddenly the whole thing is blocked with police cars ... that never even chased me or overtook me in the first place! Puuuuulease [sick]

Hey, want to help an aspiring game developer avoid this kind of crappy behavior? [smile] Check out this thread.

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Then again, if you are a badass such as Riddick, I guess things could be a little different :-P

Even Riddick needed a place to chill if I remember correctly. [grin]

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Original post by zarthrag _Most Wanted_ comes to mind, namely the part where Wayans is recognized by a passer-by and is then running down the street with (quite literally) the *entire* city chasing him on foot.

LOL! I'd LOVE to see this occassionally in such a game, with your face on the TV and a bazillion dollar bounty on your head. The first time you saw it, you'd be saying "what in the hell?!?!?!?!?!" [lol]