What are some interesting ideas for different types of units fighting inside a city? I'm trying to make this a high level abstraction, meaning you don't really know where units are, whether they have line of sight, or other nit-picky things like ammo or facing direction. Your view is basically as if you were managing things from up in the clouds. The fighting rules are supposed to be generic: It could be power-armor suits versus Aliens-style xenomorphs; it could be musketeers versus velociraptors, doesn't matter. Basics To start, I've broken this down into five unit types: Solo, Squad, Mob, Column and Ultra. Each has a subtype:

• Solo: Scout (stealth short range), Ranger (medium range weapons), Assassin (stealth + long range), Sapper (traps / explosives) and Close Fighter (has to be in contact).
• Squad (a mixed force deploying intelligent, tactical skills): Specialist (commandos), Light and Heavy.
• Mob (which range from unarmed civilians to armed militants/creatures): Unarmed, Mixed, Militant
• Column (which are mixed troops / vehicles organized for self protection): Troop, Light Armor, Heavy Armor
• Ultra (special category for huge mecha, floating starships, Godzillas, etc): Beast, Amorphous, Light Mech, Heavy Mech

Assumptions Here are some assumptions:

• Just because you're high-tech doesn't mean you're impervious to tactics. I want the system to allow a force like Star Wars Ewoks, for example, to beat the Empire.
• Terrain makes all the difference: In open fields, the Ewoks are dead meat, but in the forest, they have a chance
• The rules need to be fast and straightforward, so there isn't a lot of room for subtlety unless that subtlety will really add to the combat

Unit stats: Attack - Ability to assault and damage a target Defense - Ability to resist assault based on armor and tactics Speed - Movement speed Stealth - Ability to perform sneak attacks or attack and withdraw without being hurt TL - Tech level (0 to x) (Not sure if this is needed) Range - For ranged units, range of attack, also should help decide how often a unit can defend with ranged weapons when being assaulted Training - Green, Regular, Veteran, Elite Number of Attacks The larger the unit, the greater the number of times it should be able to attack. This can either be expressed as overall damage it does, or in the number of times it has a chance to do damage.

• Solo - 1
• Squad - 3
• Mob - 5
• Column - 8
• Ultra - 15

Hit Points This is supposed to be the armor, hit points and health of the unit, all rolled into one.

• Solo - 1 * TL
• Squad - 3 * TL
• Mob - 5 * TL
• Column - 8 * TL
• Ultra - 15 * TL

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Rules This is where it gets ugly! There are probably three types of attacks: A close assault, a ranged assault, and a stealth / surprise assault. In general, the attacker has to win the majority of the battles. Close Assaults Attacker's Attack score + Defender's Defense score = Total; Attack / Total = chance for success. Example: Att 6 vs. Def 4 = (6 + 4) = 10; chance for success = 6/10 = 60%. Success is a random test under 60%, in this case. Every time a unit wins a battle, it takes 1 HP from the loser for every 10% of success. So if the test was 40% as above, the damage is 4; 30% is 3, 20% is 2, etc. The difference in training level acts as a modifier. The difference in tech levels acts as a buffer. Formula: [ (Test % * 10) + (Attacker TL - Defender TL) ] * (Attacker Training / Defender Training) Ranged Assaults In general, a ranged assault is the same as a close assault except that the defender doesn't have a chance to harm the attacker unless they are of equal or superior range. Stealth / Surprise Assaults The difference here is that the attacker and defender have a contest of Stealth + TL vs. Stealth + TL. The winner gets to attack the defender first. For every 10%, the winner does 1 extra HP of damage. So a Stealth 5 + TL 1 (6) vs. a Stealth 0 + TL 4 (4) gives a contest of 60% for the attacker, who is able to do 1 to 6 points of damage per successful attack. Tactics: Terrain Modifiers The tactics should probably depend heavily on the terrain:

• Open (parks and fields): Standard rules
• Obstructed (corners or areas with cover, grassy fields, trees): Defense +1, Stealth + 1
• Lowrises (streets, alleys and small homes and buildings): Defense +2, Stealth +2, Speed -1, Range -1; units of up to Column size only
• Highrises (big buildings, garages, causeways between buildings): Defense +3, Stealth +3, Speed -2; units of up to Mob size only or Column Troops
• Complex (collapsed ruins with lots of hidey holes or sewers, forests): Defense +4, Stealth +4, Speed -3; units of up to Mob size only or Column Troops

Exceptions: Unit AbilitiesSolos All solos get Stealth x 2 in terrain Scouts ignore all speed penalties Assassins always withdraw at 1/2 damage when attacked Sappers take no damage when defending (they use traps / bombs) and may set traps/bombs Rangers always attack first unless facing another ranger, in which case normal TL rules apply Squads All squads get Stealth x 1.5 in buildings or complex terrain Squads have double defense when surprising any other larger unit Specialist Squads ignore all speed penalties and take only 1/2 damage when defending (defensive perimeter) Light Squads get +1 movement bonus vs. any speed penalties Mobs Mobs may only stealth in buildings Unarmed Mobs withdraw at 1/3 HP damage when attacked (they scatter) Mixed Mobs withdraw at 1/2 HP damage (scattering) Militant Mobs effectively double Def when attacking (swarming) Mobs can never be Elite Columns Columns can only move over Open or Obstructed terrain Columns may demolish buildings by attacking them, converting them to Complex Troops may Entrench, effectively doubling Def stat Troops have a chance to panic smaller units when attacking, causing them to withdraw automatically (TL + Training vs TL + Training) Troops have -1 Stealth Light Armor has +1 Move over open terrain, -2 Stealth Heavy Armor has -3 Stealth Ultras Ultras may not stealth Ultras may demolish buildings, converting them to Complex; or may demolish them by moving into them, doing damage on a contest of TL vs TL Beasts lose 1 point of attack for every 10% HP lost Amorphous may ignore all move penalties and terrain restrictions Light Mechs have Def x 2 in open terrain, Speed +1 Heavy Mechs have Def x 3 in open terrain Ultras have a chance to panic smaller units when attacking, causing them to withdraw automatically (TL + Training vs TL + Training) [Edited by - Wavinator on January 27, 2005 7:24:13 PM]

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Just because you're high-tech doesn't mean you're impervious to tactics. I want the system to allow a force like Star Wars Ewoks, for example, to beat the Empire. Terrain makes all the difference: In open fields, the Ewoks are dead meat, but in the forest, they have a chance

Home ground advantage - +1 training level up to Veteran? Extra stealth? Even a mob could fade into the population, only to reassemble elsewhere (flash mobs)!

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Original post by Wavinator What are some interesting ideas for different types of units fighting inside a city?

Guerrilla warfare. Read the newspapers, you'll find lots of inspiring stuff in iraq right now.

I think it would fit perfectly with the "fighting from cloud level" premise, because it is highly tactic.

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Original post by owl Guerrilla warfare. Read the newspapers, you'll find lots of inspiring stuff in iraq right now. I think it would fit perfectly with the "fighting from cloud level" premise, because it is highly tactic.

I tried to reflect that in the rules: Columns can't move inside to buildings unless they're troops, buildings give stealth advantages, etc.

Can you see any areas for improvements that don't support guerilla warfare? I didn't include anything about morale and support, for the most part, as guerillas are typically supported by the population. But that isn't reflected in the heat of combat, I don't think.

Btw, IED bombers would be Sapper units under this system.

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Original post by Fruny Home ground advantage - +1 training level up to Veteran? Extra stealth? Even a mob could fade into the population, only to reassemble elsewhere (flash mobs)!

Hey, I really like the idea of a defender advantage. Maybe stealth +2 stealth(you know all the traps and backdoors) and no morale break (this is your home, fight or die).

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Original post by Wavinator Quote: Original post by owl Guerrilla warfare. Read the newspapers, you'll find lots of inspiring stuff in iraq right now. I think it would fit perfectly with the "fighting from cloud level" premise, because it is highly tactic. Can you see any areas for improvements that don't support guerilla warfare? I didn't include anything about morale and support, for the most part, as guerillas are typically supported by the population. But that isn't reflected in the heat of combat, I don't think.

Millitary budget, stablishing and defending bases and supply lines.
Moral and hitpoints could depend on supply, supply on military budget and defense.

I don't think combat will be very exciting from the cloud level. Did you ever play "Advanced Civilization?"? it's a turn-based board-like game where strategy and economy are the fun elements, if you can play it it could give you some ideas on that way.

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Original post by Wavinator Hey, I really like the idea of a defender advantage. Maybe stealth +2 stealth(you know all the traps and backdoors) and no morale break (this is your home, fight or die).

Not necessarily a "defender" advantage, otherwise you get into games that never end because defenders are unassailable; but rather a bonus if you're on known territory ("home territory" would equate with extensive training and intelligence about the area).

As for morale breaks, rather than blanket immunity, it could simply manifest differently depending on the offense/defense situation: you can disperse and rally later more easily in friendly territory ... hmmmm you might want to 'simply' keep track of the moral and faction status of the general civilian population (if any) in the area. Also, even if, say, a Mob completely breaks and surrenders, a Solo would be hard-pressed dealing with it without support, more so in hostile (for the Solo) territory, while the opposite situation would likely end up with a dead or captured Solo.

So... if morale break in friendly territory, the unit doesn't participate to the next N rounds. In hostile territory, it suffers additional damage? In friendly territory, you get extra stealth unless the opponent is willing to slaughter everybody? On home ground (could be any forest 'square' for an Ewok [smile]) you get a training bonus, unless the opponent has extensive intelligence on the area?

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Original post by owl Millitary budget, stablishing and defending bases and supply lines. Moral and hitpoints could depend on supply, supply on military budget and defense.

This COULD work inside a city, but I think I'm going to be so abstract as to say either defenders are in the city and attackers are hitting it from outside; or they're engaged inside the city, without a real notion of supply lines. (You won't be able to get in-city sieges of a particular area of the city, but that I don't care about)

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I don't think combat will be very exciting from the cloud level. Did you ever play "Advanced Civilization?"? it's a turn-based board-like game where strategy and economy are the fun elements, if you can play it it could give you some ideas on that way.

I agree with you! [smile] That's why it's not for you, it's for the computer to do behind your back and generate RPG events you can get in on.

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Original post by Fruny Not necessarily a "defender" advantage, otherwise you get into games that never end because defenders are unassailable; but rather a bonus if you're on known territory ("home territory" would equate with extensive training and intelligence about the area).

D'oh! That's actually what I meant (about knowing the hidey-holes and backdoors). Defenders wouldn't get this advantage if they invaded and entrenched, for instance.

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As for morale breaks, rather than blanket immunity, it could simply manifest differently depending on the offense/defense situation: you can disperse and rally later more easily in friendly territory ... hmmmm you might want to 'simply' keep track of the moral and faction status of the general civilian population (if any) in the area. Also, even if, say, a Mob completely breaks and surrenders, a Solo would be hard-pressed dealing with it without support, more so in hostile (for the Solo) territory, while the opposite situation would likely end up with a dead or captured Solo. So... if morale break in friendly territory, the unit doesn't participate to the next N rounds. In hostile territory, it suffers additional damage?

Okay, how about this:

Morale break is a way to damage a unit without actually attacking and damaging yourself.

So for troops, mobs, any squad, and solos:
The defender, if in friendly territory, "disperses" (disappears) for awhile, then can reappear at 1/4 strength and slowly recharge to near full (representing regrouping and reinforcements)?

For all others, I'm not sure. Maybe just some defense bonus (a mech or tank force can't just disperse).

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In friendly territory, you get extra stealth unless the opponent is willing to slaughter everybody? On home ground (could be any forest 'square' for an Ewok [smile]) you get a training bonus, unless the opponent has extensive intelligence on the area?

Yeah, I don't mind an extra point or so of stealth for home territory, as well. I don't want to get into intelligence at the battle level, so I'll skip that.

Ambush - like a surprise attack but planned.

((Attack Stealth * Training)/size) - ((Defender Stealh * Training)/size) = Free Attacks

if Free Attacks > 0 then the attacker has ambushed the defender and makes Free Attacks number of attacks on the defender.
if Free Attacks < 0 then the defender has countered the attackers ambush and amkes Free Attacks number attacks on the attacker.

Mobs
Attacks 1;

Special - for each round the remains engaged in combat without breaking their number of attacks doubles.

You mention ewoks, but you forgot to mention traps!

Traps could of course vary in sophistication from big logs swung from trees, to setting explosives on city infrastructure so it can be demolished on top of the enemy troops.

Of course, traps take some preparation time, and may involve sacrificing some parts of the city, but they can turn a guaranteed defeat into a victory.