It might help to think not in terms of music creation, but rather the effect you want the music to have on the crowd...

Just brainstorming here...lets take the paper-rock-sissors approch...you have three buttons...one is "musical attention", another "musical excitement", and the third is "musical technique"...each focuses on a particular musical movement, in terms of interactive music production...

now lets say the player is set up on a street corner...he chooses a song (each of which may have modifyers upon the crowds reaction)...then presses one of the three buttons to begin...at that point in time the passers by enguage in a behind the sceens game of rock-paper-sissors with the player...if the player wins/ties, the NPC stops to listen, giveing visual clues as to thier likely next R-P-S choice (if the NPC wins they just wonder off) the more wins...the more money the NPC contributes...catch is that players increase thier odds by hitting the buttons in general time to the music...in effect this is nothing mre then an rather abstracted crowd control...even allows for some puzzle elements and other bonuses (certain songs played before certain crowds + certain combinations of player choices result in specific bonuses, etc..)

But thats just my initial thoughts :P

I have long thought about such a "birth of rock" game...but haven't even tried developing it any farther then the general concept phase...a GTA styled game (minus much of the violence) with the appropriate nod to rock myths and legends...as well as a sort of Pied Piper approch to the storyline would work very well IMHO :D

This could work! Hm... What would all three of those buttons stand for according to your idea? I know that you have "Musical Attention", "Musical Excitement", and "Musical Technique", but what do you mean by those? Or are they just "working titles"?

I was also thinking about playing certain styles or instruments in front of different crowds influencing them differently.

just working titles...the core idea is just a variation on paper-rock-sissors....so:

paper is bendable, foldable, etc...maybe represent it by music fluidity, how melodies bend into one another.

Rock is hard, powerfull, unbending, etc...maybe represent it as music bombastic notes.

sissors are machines, engineered, precision...represented by musical technique, difficulty in playing certain measures, etc...

get a hold of one of those music construction programs...something like ACID, or one of the other sample basied thingies...with them you can play out the concepts, hear what they could sound like in game...you would only need about five music samples per song...a backbeat type of thing inorder to keep time with...three samples showcaseing the above musical attributes that are controlled by the player...and one or more layers of melodies mixed in while the song plays (which can additionaly give the player clues to how they are doing)

as for the effects of different instrements...I think that would overcomplicate things...better stick to different songs, that like spells produce different effects in different NPCs....For example, the theme song for one nation playied before the audience of another isn't good...while played before members of the same nation can generate perks beyond just the money donated to the player.

Remember keep it simple and abstract...you arn't asking the players to actualy swing swords, suit themselves up in armor and such...you are giveing them an abstract yet simple way to do those things...music in this context should be no different.

I really like how this is developing. Maybe there could be 3 different versions to each song. One that is very fluid and moving (paper), one that is very bombastic, kinda poppy (rock), and one with a bunch of fillers and extra notes inside the chords or something of the like (scissors).

As to how the player sees that they are doing well, those who enjoy it may come and just watch, or maybe dance along as Deformed Rabbit first suggested.

The idea of using different instruments could actually over-complicate things as you said MSW, but I'd like to actually have a reason for having different kinds of instruments. Maybe certain songs could only be played by using a certain instrument? Most would be open to all instruments, but some may be instrument specific.

[Edited by - aramstudios on December 5, 2004 9:58:44 PM]

Go make this game and submit it to the Independent Games Festival (www.igf.com). They have a nice $1000 prize in innovative use of audio. The due date is September 1st if you decide to attempt it. Either way, good luck.

[Edited by - vnillabrent on December 5, 2004 10:04:23 PM]

I think different instruments could be fun! Say, you start with a Plain Drum and Ordinary Fiddle, then later you get a "Drum of Righteous Grooviness +3" and a "Stoneoak Fiddle strung with Dragongut +5". They would enable more advanced musical "moves" like nonstandard tempo or chords, thus your playing appeals to more discrimainating audiences (and would sound better or at least differently to the gameplayer).

This would tap into the Hero-dressing appeal of Diablo and the likes. This also makes the learning curve less steep; in the beginning of the game, when the player has the vanilla instruments there's not so many factors to consider when playing a tune.

Really, what I was thinking about doing with the different instruments was just having different instruments. You could have a Mandolin (sp?), Flute, Harmonica, Guitar, Trombone, Violin, Accordian (another question of spelling), etc... not really affecting the ability to play a certain way or anything, just the sound and whether or not a certain song can be played. Also, I might attempt to come up with some strange instruments that aren't real. Not sure.

I'm also thinking about having the ability to play the instrument in a free-play mode... Not exactly any actual reason to the method of play, just that certain letters can play certain notes. This method won't be able to get the player any money anymore, it'll just allow them to have a little extra thing to try.

And on the subject of how certain song get a different reaction from certain crowds... There could be anthems for different nations or cities, etc. as MSW insinuated and if you play the WRONG song in front of a crowd (i.e.: play an enemy anthem), it could enrage members of the crowd and they may even attack you.

I really think haveing music instruments, let alone the likes of the "Drum of Righteous Grooviness +3" and a "Stoneoak Fiddle strung with Dragongut +5" would choke the life right out of the idea...

Seriously, for the time being ignore how music is made...and simply concentrate on what effect you want it to have in the game world...

I think you will find music would relate more with magic then the physical reality of edged weapons...by playing music before a crowd you arn't physicaly forceing them to fork over thier money...no, you are enchanting them to do so.

As such the songs themselves could be considered magic spells...no, they might not shoot fire balls, and whatnot...but the proper love song could help sway the prince and princess of waring nations to marrage...the right anthem could help build morale in battle weary troops...music sooths the savage beast.

The added detail of manageing instruments atop this just mucks up the core idea...it overcomplicates it, purposely adding a uneeded layer of micromanagement to what should be simple and ellegant...With instruments you not only worry players about thier song choices...and how well they can play it...but also if they have the right instruments to get the desired effect...Thats too many variables that need to be in agreement inorder to achieve the desired effect...kinda like saying that inorder to defeat monster X players must choose the correct weapon, have the abilities to use the weapon, and make the correct choices in how they secure thier footwear...tie your shoes wrong, and the damage you inflict is minimal, no matter how correct your choice of weapon and abilities to use it.

But thats the way I see it...

I see what you're saying, but at the same time I have a different idea. I don't have the idea (I might have had the idea earlier, but not now) that a different instrument affects the crowd differently and affects how well you play. My idea is to just have different instruments in order to jazz it up a bit. If a song cannot be played except by a single instrument, or by a certain group of instruments, then the player will know. It would be just as simple as getting ready to play any other song with any other instrument. It would be a huge rarity that a song would be exclusive to any instruments anyway.

I didn't read the whole thread, so I'm sorry if I'm saying what someone else already has, but I do believe it would be possible to make a system that could recognise good music within an error theshold.

Music generally has to be in time, which is fairly easy to gauge, and quite a lot of music has specific 'rules' governing how notes play into each-other. Changing from major to minor chords at certain times but not too often, that sort of thing. Reading a lot of books on music theory should give you a baseline idea of what kind of things are expected from specific types of music, and you could have variables dictating what style of music a towns inhabitants like (Could also be found out without trial-and-error by talking to the citizens).

The other option, while far more complex and time consuming, would be to write a neural net and run several good songs and several intentionally crap tracks (Off beat, out of tune or just random sounds) then create a fitness function to identify the good tracks from the bad and go through the whole breeding process with the best brains amongst the bunch. However, this seems dreadfully over-complex for a game.