i frequently hear how people dont quite like the level and experience grind in RPGs so i figured id ask the community here about ideas on alternate kinds of growth or alternate methods of doing the level grind.

I think the grind comes from unenjoyable repetition. Nobody complains about the level treadmill when it's fun.

I think that it's important that the game change by degrees after a certain amount of time. Even if you're doing a pure hack & slash, it's nice to have enemies that switch tactics or employ different powers/abilities after a certain amount of time. Leveling usually is your signal that you're ready to handle tougher challenges, but if the challenges are just the same with different HP and attack scores, that gets old for many fast.

Personally, I'd like to see less emphasis on level restrictions such that every ability in the game is open to you at level one, but you have to invest in them to make them better. This gives you a taste of what's to come and gives you many different strategies to try as soon as you jump in. I think then you won't notice the grind because it won't be a grind--you'll be too busy playing the game a number of different ways.

I'd prefer point systems allocated to abilities, btw; no level restriction on items, but rather skill degradation depending on how difficult the item was to use (I don't like being told "you're not high enough a level to use that.")

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Original post by Wavinator I think the grind comes from unenjoyable repetition. Nobody complains about the level treadmill when it's fun. I think that it's important that the game change by degrees after a certain amount of time. Even if you're doing a pure hack & slash, it's nice to have enemies that switch tactics or employ different powers/abilities after a certain amount of time. Leveling usually is your signal that you're ready to handle tougher challenges, but if the challenges are just the same with different HP and attack scores, that gets old for many fast. Personally, I'd like to see less emphasis on level restrictions such that every ability in the game is open to you at level one, but you have to invest in them to make them better. This gives you a taste of what's to come and gives you many different strategies to try as soon as you jump in. I think then you won't notice the grind because it won't be a grind--you'll be too busy playing the game a number of different ways. I'd prefer point systems allocated to abilities, btw; no level restriction on items, but rather skill degradation depending on how difficult the item was to use (I don't like being told "you're not high enough a level to use that.")

There's an older game I used to play that somewhat did this. But instead of allocating points to a particular attribute, you moved along a grid. Each point on the grid was a level, and you could choose to level any ability you want. It was pretty neat. I'll see if I can find it.

Lower frequency, higher difficulty.

I mean, should I have to kill 100 rats before I can kill a dog? You'd think just killing a couple would give me a good feel for the whole murder based gameplay.

The easiest way is just have the storyline flow well enough, that you don't notice the grind at all. GoldenSun does a very well job of this if you need an example.

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Original post by vaneger i frequently hear how people dont quite like the level and experience grind in RPGs so i figured id ask the community here about ideas on alternate kinds of growth or alternate methods of doing the level grind.

Nah, I think the people who have been telling you this are old men who have forgotten what fun really means. I agree that some RPG leveling is somewhat repetitive. But as long as leveling up is meaningful, the gameplay is fun, and the story draws you in, grind * grind * grind.

I don't really mind the "level grind" in most old school RPG's. When it gets boring is if you have to collect 20 levels in one place. I want variety in my critters. If I have to fight the same 3 guys for 20 levels...bleah. Lufia 2 (SNES) did this perfectly as far as I'm concerned. I'd get to a dungeon, go through it killing stuff along the way to find all the items that were in it and make enough money to buy whatever was available in the nearest town. Then I'd exit and go buy stuff in the town, and go back in and head for the boss. Considering that the dungeons also had puzzles in them, it didn't seem like a grind at all.

One thing I DO hate though, is when you're trying to explore a dungeon and keep running into random fights every other step. And then when you WANT to fight stuff to level up, you walk around forever before anything shows up. This is another thing Lufia 2 usually did well, because the only place you can run into random encounters is in the world map. You can see and potentially avoid all the critters wandering around the dungeons. I don't like the way Chrono Trigger did this though, because every critter was always in the same place. Too predictable.

So as with everything else, you've got to strike a good balance.

ive always thought that when you get to a lvl grinding lvl (talking more about mmorpg games here) that you should have the option to be reborn in a way....

i mean by this you start at lvl 0 however, you have the options to level up spells further then they where in your previous lives, you have access to new skills/spells/items/areas/quests

/syko

I think its all preference. I personally prefer the level up system because say you had a hard time offing a deathbunny you come back to that same spot 2-3 hours later you'll probly be able to finish it off in one shot.If you look at the finalfantasy series and how much money they made you can see that most people prefer levels, I know I do:).
edit: but then again look at mario,zelda,and donkey kong.

1st, an idea about what a level grind treadmill is,

What forced grouping is about

2nd, an idea about how to tweak a level treadmill by bybridizing with a skill system,

RPG vs MMORPG