Realism is very difficult to apply in a game when it comes to weapons. Everyone who ever had to carry (and fire!) a machine gun knows that most games are just as unrealistic as it can get.
Even if you reduce the weight of the weapon (it's the future after all and weapons are getting lighter today, too) you still have the problem of some weapons being bulky. Switching from a pistol to a sub machine gun is simple. Putting away your portable rocket launcher is not that simple.

While limiting the player to a primary and smaller secondary weapons is a good idea, you still have to keep in mind that the agility is reduced if you have some grenades on your belt, a shotgun on your back a pistol holster on your chest and a smg in your hand [smile].

I wouldn't focus on realistic weapon switching if your game allows an unrealistic amount of ammo and weapons for the player (e.g. carrying the ammo and the machine gun at the same time is just not realistic at all).

Just my .02€,
Pat.

Honesty, I'm not really shooting for extreme realism. The only concern with switching weapons for me is avoiding making it lame. I just think having things pop out of no where is a little lame. The only palettable solution (one that won't cut down on the rest of the game, as in each armor or clothing I make taking 5 times longer, plus having restrictions, all because of weapon holsters) is to use an inventory mode. If I use an inventory mode, I'm making the player stop the game and click several times for absolutely no reason other than to hide something from them. As lame as it seems having the weapon appear out of nowhere, it seems to be the only answer.

I'll probably just make the character reach behind him for large weapons, and under his arm or such for hand guns. The weapon will pop up there. So even if he does go into inventory mode to switch weapons, I have to play these animation for equipping them, otherwise there would be a time advantage with it. So I'm chucking it all towards lame to add gameplay [smile]

I've seen extremely professional games just have weapons materialize in the characters hands without any animation at all (eg vice city), so this makes me feel a little better. It's much better than building 15 holsters for 15 shirts for 15 character races in 15 shapes. Heheh. And it's much better than forcing the player to stop the game.

I appreciate the ideas! Thanks.

Ok, here's a really simple answer, it won't look lame but you won't have a lot of work either: if you're facing the left side of the player, weapons pop from behind his right side (like from a right holster) ; if you're facing the right side, he gets them from his left. This way it's always hidden. With a couple more animations you've got all angles covered :)

Two sidearms, a longarm on a shoulder strap, and the ability to pick weapons up off the ground (ie ONI, has everyone forgotten?). One button to pull weapon (or pick it off the ground), another button to cycle carried weapons (switch if a weapon's pulled, change highlighted if not), third to drop (or throw at someone's face) weapons. You could carry four or five this way -- two holstered sidearms and the longarm plus either a longarm or one or two more sidearms in your hands. Mind that you'll need some logic to drop weapons if you switch to something holstered when your hands and holsters are full.

Quote: Original post by Jiia
I personally have to disagree with the unlockable situation. I prefer games that give you rewards for accomplishing a goal. If at the end of a week, you've finally finished the game, what better way to make the gamers day than to give them another way to enjoy it?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be unlockables at all. I'm saying that they're being overused, as a lazy means of challenging the player. The gameplay and narrative should provide sufficient incentive to play, not just the promise of unlockables.

Quote: I believe the entire drive behind the idea of an RPG is unlockables. The ending is an unlockable. Skills are unlockables. Weapons, armor, the story itself.

I don't consider the progression of the narrative or character advancement to be unlockables, which may be a critical difference between us and why you don't find them excessive. It is only logical that playing should reveal more of the story and cause your character to become more capable; are we now going to consider power-ups in a shooter to be "unlockables"? The fireball in Super Mario Bros. is now an "unlockable"?

I think that an unlockable is a substantial alteration to the balance of the game, or an entirely new mode of play, or a significant aesthetic overhaul.

I'm off-topic, though, so I'll put that aside.


Back on topic, why do we need so many weapons in the first place? Most weapons in most games are redundant, just slight variations on the same theme. Jotaf mentioned Halo, which had far fewer weapons than most recent FPSes. In particular, the sniper rifle and the shotgun were only useful in specific situations, so they only ever made appearances in those situations. Even then, the plasma pistol and the needler were a complete waste of time.

Jotaf also pointed out that being limited to carrying and using only two weapons in Halo didn't seem to have affected gameplay markedly; Killzone will only allow three. Why does a character need to be able to carry five or six weapons? I can understand two or three guns, some grenades and a knife. I can't understand five guns and all the rest.

Quote: Original post by Sta7ic
Two sidearms, a longarm on a shoulder strap, and the ability to pick weapons up off the ground (ie ONI, has everyone forgotten?).

In Halo, Bungie (who also made ONI) streamlined this process such that you could discard your current weapon in favor of one you found on the ground.

Quote: One button to pull weapon (or pick it off the ground), another button to cycle carried weapons (switch if a weapon's pulled, change highlighted if not), third to drop (or throw at someone's face) weapons.

You'd only drop if you were picking something else up. The third button would be a melee attack with that weapon, bashing your enemy's face in.

Why do I need so many guns? Sometimes I have these memory flashbacks of playing Final Fantasy 3 (or 1 in the US, the one for the NES). I always looked forward to finding the next town, just so I could buy a brand new weapon. But then when I got there and realized it costed twice as much as I had, I would have to go back out into the forests and hunt more monsters. You know those certain memories that give you chills up your spine when you think of them? This is one of mine.

I can't remember an RPG that I've played where I thought it had too many weapons. Does this happen? How is too many weapons a bad thing? I could understand if the game had so many different weapons available, one would get completed lossed in them. But not if you space their availablity out in the progress of the game. That's also what I mean by unlockables. A new, more powerful weapon does alter the balance of the game. If it doesn't, what's the point? And I'm not saying the challenge becomes easier, as their can always be tougher enemies around certain corners.

Of course what I find fun may be the same as what less than 30% of the gaming population agrees with. So I'm speaking for myself. But I have to admit that I expect most gamers would vote that more is better when it comes to weapons.

Personally, I'm a "quality over quantity" guy. However, I don't feel qualified to comment since I don't play RPGs (I find them tedious and boring, with an overemphasis on collecting for collecting's sake).

I wasn't commenting about the total number of weapons in the world, however. I was wondering why, exactly, I would need my character to be a walking armory? It's these kinds of dissonances and screwy internal logic that make games foreign to a lot of people. In the real world, we would expect that a warrior would arm himself adequately without [excessively] sacrificing mobility before going into combat/conflict/battle. In game worlds, you carry the equivalent of an Abrams tank with you, yet you don't know what most of the equipment is for (unless you obsessively read extra-diegetic material like game guides), and a lot of the equipment ends up being either useless/worthless or one-use.

Is it essential to gameplay? Does it enhance gameplay? These are questions that seem to no longer be asked, instead throwing things in because they make for good hype and soundbites ("There are over 300 different weapons in the game").

Someone once defined a game as a series or sequence of interesting choices. Keyword, interesting. If choosing a weapon becomes more of a chore than a genuinely strategic decision, then the proliferation of armaments is detrimental to gameplay.

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi
I'm not saying there shouldn't be unlockables at all. I'm saying that they're being overused, as a lazy means of challenging the player. The gameplay and narrative should provide sufficient incentive to play, not just the promise of unlockables.

Unlockables really depend on if they're worth it. IMO, it's best if it's something interesting, useful, and that doesn't duplicate or render irrelevant something else in the game. Sure, those superweapons are spiffy in the adventure "RPG"s, but they either break the game or are mandatory for something or somewhere else.

Quote: I don't consider the progression of the narrative or character advancement to be unlockables, which may be a critical difference between us and why you don't find them excessive. It is only logical that playing should reveal more of the story and cause your character to become more capable; are we now going to consider power-ups in a shooter to be "unlockables"? The fireball in Super Mario Bros. is now an "unlockable"?

Some of my favorite unlockables are in DX1, where you have the passwords for everyone's computers and can track more of the back story without needing the computer skill.

Quote: Back on topic, why do we need so many weapons in the first place? Most weapons in most games are redundant, just slight variations on the same theme. Jotaf mentioned Halo, which had far fewer weapons than most recent FPSes. In particular, the sniper rifle and the shotgun were only useful in specific situations, so they only ever made appearances in those situations. Even then, the plasma pistol and the needler were a complete waste of time.

(semi OT) Right weapons for the right time. The plasma charged shot is useful against the elites, but really shines on legendary and against gold elites.

Quote:

Quote: Original post by Sta7ic
Two sidearms, a longarm on a shoulder strap, and the ability to pick weapons up off the ground (ie ONI, has everyone forgotten?).

In Halo, Bungie (who also made ONI) streamlined this process such that you could discard your current weapon in favor of one you found on the ground.

Noted, but there's a big difference between Halo and Oni in terms of gameplay and camera. Being a 3rd person game Jiia's working on, a 3rd person game seems like a better example to me.
But it was a VERY good way to do things. Props to Bungie.

Quote:

Quote: One button to pull weapon (or pick it off the ground), another button to cycle carried weapons (switch if a weapon's pulled, change highlighted if not), third to drop (or throw at someone's face) weapons.

You'd only drop if you were picking something else up. The third button would be a melee attack with that weapon, bashing your enemy's face in.

The melee's nice, but sometimes you want to chuck a weapon for other reasons. It might not jive with the spare clips you have or is empty, it might've been the only loaded weapon on the ground (or pulled out of somebody's hands), it might just be the wrong color for the player. Who knows. This'd have to be a semi-smart action (throw or melee if in combat, drop otherwise), but there are seriously times when you just want to lose a weapon without the hassle of holstering it.

Quote: Original post by Sta7ic

Quote:

Quote: One button to pull weapon (or pick it off the ground), another button to cycle carried weapons (switch if a weapon's pulled, change highlighted if not), third to drop (or throw at someone's face) weapons.

You'd only drop if you were picking something else up. The third button would be a melee attack with that weapon, bashing your enemy's face in.

The melee's nice, but sometimes you want to chuck a weapon for other reasons. It might not jive with the spare clips you have or is empty, it might've been the only loaded weapon on the ground (or pulled out of somebody's hands), it might just be the wrong color for the player. Who knows. This'd have to be a semi-smart action (throw or melee if in combat, drop otherwise), but there are seriously times when you just want to lose a weapon without the hassle of holstering it.

I plan to impliment such a reason to toss your weapon. Simply because puting it away will take too much time. I'm thinking each weapon in your inventory can be linked to a key of your choosing, and pressing the keys will make the character automatically put the current weapon away and pull out the fresh one. But If the player wants to do this is a hurry (while under fire), a smarter or faster strategy would be to just drop / toss the weapon he's holding and draw the other.

I've implimented a command-stack for this very reason. When the player presses successive keys after each other, the character will not default back to his posture or aiming animation, and instead will switch to the new action animation as soon as possible.

I'm guessing that the difference between puting a weapon away and just releasing it from your grip should be about 2 to 5 seconds (depending on the size), where releasing it would be almost instant (less than a second). So if you run out of ammo or just need a different weapon type in the middle of heavy combat, there is little other choice.

Oluseyi, you're totally correct about the collecting. But I think the idea is that you're supposed to have fun playing the game, not collecting the rewards. The rewards are there to make your achievments more worthwhile. A new toy to have more fun. If the game isn't fun to begin with, you can't really blame it on the rewards.