quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster

Interesting reading guys. I''m an occasional poster over on the Elderscrolls forums and am posting in response to a post there by Nazrix. I hope it''s alright for a nondeveloper to join the discussion?

I think it''s beneficial to us all to hear from a non-developer Thanks for the input.

Besides, now I have more artiliary against the Landfish. Just kidding, LF. I may have been missing what you were saying in the beginning anyway.




"""" "'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree"-Nazrix" -- runemaster --and now dwarfsoft" -- dwarfsoft --pouya" -- Nazrix

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Off the top of my head:
Ok, on one hand is a rigid preplanned plot. We force the players through the plot because that''s all there is. Fetch the 4 widgets. If you don''t fetch the widgets, the game state will never change.

On the other hand we have the totally free-form ''game''. Do what you want, hopefully it will be enjoyable enough for you to keep playing. Ugh.

I think there''s a better trick to this. The computer game world needs to be 1-2 steps ahead of the player in terms of planning (quests, plots, etc), but what the player doesn''t need to know is that the game is *only* 1-2 steps ahead. Make the larger plot structure largely devoid of fixed items (the end points might need to be fixed, but that''s about it).

The game would have to keep track of a lot of data about the current game world (is NPC X alive?). Anything the player does not immediately see can be generated behind the scenes as we need it. For example, we don''t need to determine if Official Y was bribed until we reach a decision that depends on that event in the past, or unless the player sees it.

I''m thinking some sort of chaos theory pattern to spawn future events. Hmm. I need to sit down and play with this idea some more.

Yes, I think that is a good idea. That's the main thing that I planned to do. You'd basically just use finite state machines to find out the states of different objects in the game and react to them accordingly.


"""" "'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree"-Nazrix" -- runemaster --and now dwarfsoft" -- dwarfsoft --pouya" -- Nazrix

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


Edited by - Nazrix on October 10, 2000 7:07:25 PM

quote: Original post by Shinkage

I think this feeds more into something else. Game writers up until this point have focused almost exclusively on plot, virtually ignoring other literary elements. What''s funny is that for compelling stories, plot is generally considered one of the least important elements.

The first step toward eliminating current literary woes in the gaming industry is to integrate deep characterization and theme into stories.

This is a great point, and I''m surprised folks aren''t running with it! In the game System Shock, plot (beyond quests and tasks) was pretty much minimized, but characterization was really played up. As a result you got (or at least *could* get) emotionally envolved with the lost crew and their fate, even though it was all through logs and messages.

quote:
As long as games focus so much on just plot, it''s always going to be a matter of go to place A, commit act B, obtain object C, etc...

I totally agree!!! But when place A is the cell of a legendary but now embittered warrior about to go to the gallows, and act B is to free him of the guilt of losing not only his child, but an entire war, and object C is the evidence held by the scheming Viceroy that will make a deal with you if you only just sell your soul... well, then I think that''s cool, and you''re on the road to overcoming some of the significant problems that narrative brings to gameplay.



--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

Wow, Wav. You're on a roll today when it comes to making sense to me


"""" "'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree"-Nazrix" -- runemaster --and now dwarfsoft" -- dwarfsoft --pouya" -- Nazrix
""You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!" --Wavinator

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


Edited by - Nazrix on October 10, 2000 9:16:13 PM

This is excellent and definitely something that I wish to get in on. Plot, hmmm.... I still beleive that you require a reasonably sound plot, no matter the characterization involved, however... I am 100% in agreement that strong characterization is needed to further a plot. I never really stepped back and said "They don''t do that, but they should". The reason that I say that plot is required is because without it, you have a great excuse for the player to criticise your game. They may like a little interaction, but they will on the whole diss your game. Nuff said

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft
"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy"
IOL (The list formerly known as NPCAI) - A GDNet production
Our Doc - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche

Wow, I''d no idea that the slang word "dis" had spread all the way to Austrailia


"""" "'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree"-Nazrix" -- runemaster --and now dwarfsoft" -- dwarfsoft --pouya" -- Nazrix
""You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!" --Wavinator
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Yeah naz, we are really Americanized over here in Aus. People wear around those jumpers with "USA" on them... Why they don''t rearrange them to "AUS" to be patriotic to there own country is beyond me! . We get a lot of US television over here too, and dis has definitely been picked up from there

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

We Americans should keep our crappy culture to ourselves and not bother other countries w/ it


"""" "'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree"-Nazrix" -- runemaster --and now dwarfsoft" -- dwarfsoft --pouya" -- Nazrix
""You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!" --Wavinator
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

I think I''ll amend my earlier post - there is some value to having a larger, if skeletal, plot. If we want the game to have a conclusion, and have the player deal with Mighty Evil then things should tend to drift towards that confrontation.

So the finite state machine needs to be weighted to drift towards a climax.

the nice thing would be if you could organize it so that the climax wasn''t particularly fixed. Example: the first time you play the game, you face Evil Wizard Fred, powered by a magic Foo. The second game, you race to Evil Fred, and disrupt any plans he might have for acquiring the magic Foo. So the plot finds another appropriate villain, Evil Lich Bob, who acquires the magic Foo while the hero is dealing with Evil Fred.

Or somesuch.