Addressing the actual topic..

I think that orchestral music will never get "old", since most of the instruments used in the orchestra are incredible and can always be used for new and more interesting purposes. However, I think that vocal music, acoustic music, or electronic music can do the job equally well, depending on the situation. I write orchestral music myself, but my forte is electronica - so for soundtrack work I have done, you will hear electronic elements, either from synthesizers, digital effects, or synthetic drums. And it mostly works out. But at the same time, I don't think that hybrid style would work too well for a quiet town theme, so for that type of stuff, I will use only acoustic and orchestral instruments.

This is the philosophy a lot of film composers and directors are using also. Look at the Matrix. There are orchestral cues, but a lot of the action scenes incorporate electronic elements (thanks to Juno Reactor and Rob Dougan, to some extent). It worked perfectly. Steven Chang (sp?), the composer for most of Steven King's movies and TV series, is also a big fan of hybrid electronica and traditional elements in his work. Again, though, it's all about context. I don't think a driving dance beat with acid synths would work well for a Civil War-era battle scene, though it might fit in an urban combat scene in modern times.

Would rap, or other genres work? Sure, maybe. Again, it's all about context. Remember the DK rap? That worked, kind of. I've heard hillbilly-style country music (w/o lyrics) fit quite well in several soundtracks for some of the more lighthearted tracks. And Latin-salsa music can have a place too. I think the bottom line, though, is that it's all about the artistic vision of both the composer and the producer of the game/movie in question. It just happens to be the case that for RPGs, that vision doesn't often allow for non-orchestral stuff.

I dont understand WHY anything other then orchestrated music can't be epic in its own right. Can`t any kind of music evoke any kind of mood? Ive found myself being immeresed in all kinds of stuff I used to hate (folk/rap/electronica), and have found epic songs, sad songs, happy songs, etc. in each genre.

Wouldn`t any of those kid of songs fit in well for RPG`s? Lets take an example: The civil-war era battle scene music could be something like an upbeat folk song, some bluegrass or something, to reflect the music of the era fairly well.

Im not saying we should STOP making orchestra music, far from it. I just want to hear more styles of music being expressed through the gaming medium.

I mean, we have computers at our disposals, with all sorts of nifty things like Soft Synths, VST Plugins, Sequencers, etc. Im sure SOMETHING other then loading string samples and flute samples into some sampler with some cheesy drumming in the back can be done.

I for one am going to incorporate some dj-shadow, amon-tobin (even though im not as good as either) kind of music into my game, which is a medieval-fantasy standard action game. There will also be some hip-hop there. And folk. And detuned Latin music for dungeon scenes.

There will also be some strings+brass.

Couple of quick things...

Firstly, orchestral music and classical music are often radically different things, and if you think the sounds of symphonic instruments are going stale than you've been listening to crappy composers, or you don't know how to hear it and need to study more.

Secondly, there is nothing intrinsically black about rap, there is only something intrinsically rhythmic and melodic about rap, like all other forms of vocal music. If you choose to see it some other way than you are simply insisting on an ignorance of the fact that music is music regardless of the performer or composer. One might as well call someone rascist for disliking Jazz, or opera, or any other genre of music...this is ego-centric, arrogant thinking with no logic to support it.

Thirdly, opera is not intrinsically Italian, Opera's popularity originated in Italy true, but this is more because(Bach aside) the roots of the entire common practice period of music originated from Italy. There's a reason why most of our musical terms are Italian, that's where the music schools started during the renaissance. However, there is very little that is particularly Italian about Die Walkure, with the exception of the fact that a proper classical German accent has been mildly influenced by the Italian singing style.

Quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
Secondly, there is nothing intrinsically black about rap...

Who invented it? Who performed it? Who performs it? Who continues to expand it? Who defines it?

Stating something doesn't make it true. I can provide a litany of evidentiary support for my claim; can you? Yes, non-black peoples have adopted and adapted rap to their own situations and expressive modes, and we respect that. But you can't deny our claim to it the way you did rock n' roll and jazz before it.

[Disclaimer: I use "you", again, in the generic form, indicating a disembodied discursive counterpart.]

Quote: If you choose to see it some other way than you are simply insisting on an ignorance of the fact that music is music regardless of the performer or composer.

Rubbish.

On a certain level, music is music. On another level entirely, music is the expression of a collective emotion, and is birthed from that community and that feeling. It may later be recognized, adopted and adapted by others, but that is not grounds for discrediting its origins.

You know why contemporary punk rock has been scorned by the majority of critics for a good while? Because the anger of the expressive form was divorced from a bonafide target for that anger, resulting in the "teen angst" epidemic of recent years. With the changing political climate (in the US), punk rock is actually finding a broadly recognizable subject, and seeing a mini-resurgence - that is, outside of MTV and other such conduits where they've been popular all along.

what??? I think ambient is being way overdone if anything... maybe just the RPGs I play...

Quote:
But you can't deny our claim to it the way you did rock n' roll and jazz before it.

why not? African americans may be the genesis of rap, but they do not do not embody it, not in 2004.

Quote:
Who invented it? Who performed it? Who performs it? Who continues to expand it? Who defines it?

from what i can tell, there are many races making large contributions to rap. I think you made the AP's point.

Quote: Firstly, orchestral music and classical music are often radically different things, and if you think the sounds of symphonic instruments are going stale than you've been listening to crappy composers, or you don't know how to hear it and need to study more.

Please, i never said the sounds were going stale, just that they are being WAY overused, IMHO. Maybe my thread title is a bit misleading, but I dont think the sounds sound bad. Far from it, they sound great! Such depth..

But there ARE other instruments to choose from. We should be "progressing" not "stagnating" (again thats maybe too harsh of a word. I mean "not experimenting").

Quote: Original post by EvilCrap
why not? African americans may be the genesis of rap, but they do not do not embody it, not in 2004.

Who does?

I'm honestly curious because, unless we don't have remotely similar definitions of rap, you're just trolling.

@Oluseyi

I actually had a very extensive reply to you regarding things like recitative, and sprechstimme, Woody Guthrie, and Bob Dylan, the origin of dub, and how nobody in Naples accused Wagner's prolonged neapolitan in the prelude to Tristan und Isolde of not really being a real neapolitan because it wasn't written by an Italian and therefore is an adaptation.

Then I decided to go back and reread the thread before I hit "post", and I found this statement from you...

"As for the rest of your disagreements, whatever. I feel that there is a tangible connection between rap and the black community, and I feel that dismissive denigration of rap in America is predominantly the result of a dismissive or discriminatory attitude toward the black community in America. "

I now realize it is useless to discuss the heritage of Rap music simply due to the fact that you are so arrogant as to insist that this mans dislike of rap music MUST derive from his rascism.

The man in his book didn't say "God forfend a game with music composed by a Black man" now did he? He simply indicated that he doesn't like rap, and while I personally do not agree with his opinion, or the manner in which he has chosen to state it, there was no inherent indication of rascism.

Just because I don't like Matzah doesn't make me an anti-semite, even if in my next book I write "God forfend us to eat Matzah balls", but if a Jewish person who happens to be going out of his way to see anti-semitism at every turn reads it, that's what it'll mean to him.



@Laroche
I completely misunderstood you, I get your point, and I will definitely agree that much music in the game world has become pretty repetitious in general, although I do not think this is really an issue with the orchestration so much as the general lack of depth within many of the compositions themselves, the orchestration and arrangement must still be recognized as a part of said works and I respect your opinion.


BTW, sorry for the AP, my login is unhappy.
-Wain

Quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
"As for the rest of your disagreements, whatever. I feel that there is a tangible connection between rap and the black community, and I feel that dismissive denigration of rap in America is predominantly the result of a dismissive or discriminatory attitude toward the black community in America. "

I now realize it is useless to discuss the heritage of Rap music simply due to the fact that you are so arrogant as to insist that this mans dislike of rap music MUST derive from his rascism.

What does predominantly mean to you?

Do you know what the tragedy of racism in America is? It exists, but at every point that a person who feels that he has a legitimate grievance attempts to catalogue and describe it, insinuations are levelled to the effect that he is overemotional and paranoid.

I have no opinion on whether or not Andre LaMothe is a racist. I don't know him, nor do I care to. I do know that I found his comment deeply offensive, and I feel that I have every right to consider it a racist statement in the light of the times when it was published (I purchased the text in '95, when rap was hardly as mainstream as it has since become). My only opinion of LaMothe is that he is a barely competent egocentric, increasingly an anachronism and irrelevant to the industry today, trading on his name.

I would actually be interested in a debate on the origins of rap: you bring your facts, I bring mine. But it's off-topic for this thread and, for the most part, for this site. If you do wish to continue it, though, email me (it's in my profile). You might find that I'm not as closed-minded as you've judged me to be.