"I was seriously addicted to being online about 2-3 years ago, and I couldn''t imagine anything to be more fun. I was wrong, and I want to prevent, or at least warn, the people in this community from making more media to drag ordinary people away from their ordinary lives into a fantasy world."

Amen, I think that two important things that games can do is.

1. Remind the player that it is Just a game. Metal Gear Solid?? The question is how do you do this without breaking the immersive experience too much ?

2. Save at any time. (Single Player).

All of this "I think people shouldn''t do..." is garbage. The most important thing for everyone to realize is this.

People are going to do what they want to do. Want to take illegal drugs? Want to watch T.V. eight hours a day? Want to play computer games 12 hours a day? I mean some of these things may not make sense to you or me, but who are we to say they are wrong?

Who cares if I play UO for four hours a day, or that I was eight hours on Sunday watching (American) football? Am I hurting anyone? Did my life fall to pieces? I mean, c''mon I work hard all week and when I''m off, I want to do something that is entertaining. And to different people, different things are entertainment. Have you ever jumped out of a plane? I have, 47 times. Have you ever repelled from 300 ft? I have. That should be enough to proove my point.... nah, one more paragraph

Lubb, move to Cuba and join Casto''s party - he could use a few more people like you Free will, it''s something that all men are born with and for some reason others derive pleasure from making others conform to their desires.

Dave "Dak Lozar"Loeser

quote: Original post by Dak Lozar

All of this "I think people shouldn''t do..." is garbage. The most important thing for everyone to realize is this.

People are going to do what they want to do. Want to take illegal drugs? Want to watch T.V. eight hours a day? Want to play computer games 12 hours a day? I mean some of these things may not make sense to you or me, but who are we to say they are wrong?

Ehm, so you''re saying that it should be okay to manufacture drugs because people want to use them anyway? I know this is NOT what you''re trying to say, but that''s the argument you are using.

I''m trying it from the other end - I''m saying, lets not be the next manufacturers of [insert any addictive or unhealthy thing here]. Some people cope fine with spending occasional time online. You, Dak, are obviously not tied to your computer, even though you can have long stints in front of it, just like I like watching a few hours of movies on SOME days.
However, the discussion on MMORPGs recently has left me thinking that most people developing these, are looking to capture an audience for 8 hours a day, EVERY day. That''s taking people''s lives away, even if they [think they] enjoy it.

I don''t want to be the next Philip Morris, being reduced to defending the actions of my company by saying "But we had NO IDEA people would be spending so much time on our service", when we knew FULL WELL what we were trying to do.

Now, for someone with a different outlook on what''s wrong or right, this may seem like a silly point, but to me, this is what it amounts to.




People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~

I think you know my answer to the manufacturing of illegal substances... I won''t comment on that. But, I will comment on this:

quote: Original poster MadKeithV
I don''t want to be the next Philip Morris, being reduced to defending the actions of my company by saying "But we had NO IDEA people would be spending so much time on our service", when we knew FULL WELL what we were trying to do.

There is a big difference between adding chemical compounds to cigarettes, to increase the level of addiction and creating a game that is enjoyable to play.

Having said that, I do realize that games can become addictive. But the point I was trying to make is that each individual is responsible for his or her actions. ( Using your cigarette scenario; The choice to smoke is initially made by the individual. Today, everyone should be well informed of the hazzards of smoking, and if they choose to do so... shame on them.) And when you remove the responsibility from the individual and place it on a goverment or another organization, then you risk the right to choose at all.

I am defending the freedom of individuals, not if it is right or wrong. One of the things a democratic goverment does is create laws to uphold individual rights and freedoms, not remove them.





Dave "Dak Lozar"Loeser

One more thing...

MUDs have been around long before the new generations of MMORPGs and plenty of people have played them. They spent several hours in front of text scrolling in front of them.

Most of the guys involved in the development of the next generation of MMORPGs came from that arena. They wrote them and played them... They know what works and what doesn''t.

I don''t really think they are specifically setting out to make it necessary to play for eight hours a day... I think that players just end up doing it. I know that Richard Garriot has said that he expects players to play eight hours a day... but I think that he made that statement after he analyzed some stats from UO.

I know that in our design meetings for VenuSoft''s MMORPG, we have said that we don''t want to make the player feel that he should play eight hours a day. But, I have to say... I''m so damn excited about the things we are going to place in the game, that I can''t wait to play it and if I play for eight hours, so be it!



Dave "Dak Lozar"Loeser

Dak Lozar Quote:" Who cares if I play UO for four hours a day, or that I was eight hours on Sunday watching (American) football? Am I hurting anyone? Did my life fall to pieces?"

Okay, American Football (afaik) is not on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. There is a big difference between having a probably compulsive product for a few hours, and having one which can consume your life.

But are these people hurting anyone, I believe that they ARE HURTING PEOPLE ! If these people have families, then they are going to be neglected, if nothing else they are hurting themselves.

An illustrative comparison.
Okay so what did you do on last week, I went to a football match, took my girlfriend bowling, had a few drinks with my friends, played Ldathan (single / multiplayer)for 2 hours most days. And did some study towards my degree

Well, I played ZeldaNet for 6 hours a day everyday, from the moment that I got home I got some drinks, a ready made meal, took the phone off the hook so that I wouldn''t be interrupted whilst playing. I didn''t see my girlfriend, or talk to my friends, but I talked to my ZeldaNet buddies about setting up a subsidiary Potter''s Guild ! Wow that HelgaRoolz is a real babe... I got really bad eyestrain from playing all this time, but that is okay as I have my online friends.

Are you saying that you really think that we should be making things that will definitely persuade many players to play online for this amount of time? Do you think that they will thank you for cutting back on the real things that could have been doing, do you really think that anything you do in Online Gaming is as cool, important or worthwhile as the things that you can do away from the computer ?

DavidRM "everyone''s different, everyone has different needs at different times in their lives"

Just wondering, but how does this translate into being something that a person Needs at a time in their lives ?

quote: Original post by Ketchaval
(snip)
Are you saying that you really think that we should be making things that will definitely persuade many players to play online for this amount of time? Do you think that they will thank you for cutting back on the real things that could have been doing, do you really think that anything you do in Online Gaming is as cool, important or worthwhile as the things that you can do away from the computer ?

Ketchaval,
What I am saying is that everyone has the ability to choose. And if you are going to decide the an online game is bad for you that is fine. But, if you are going to decide that it is bad for me then your out of line.

I know that some of you find it hard to understand personal freedom as many of you live in a semi-socialized contty. I don't say this to be mean or derogatory to your country or to you.

Here is a quote from a modern day philosopher:
"I am not primarily and advocate of capitalism, but of egoism; I am not primarily and advocate of egoism, but of reason. If one recognizes the supremecy of reason and applies it consistently, all the rest follows. This-- the supremecy of reason--was, is and will be the primary concern of my work, and the essence of Objectivism." -- Ayn Rand

A little background on this lady will reveal that she was born and lived in the Soviet Union during the days of communism. I mention this because much of her ideals are anti-communism.

Much of my ideals are formed by her philosophy, I struggle with being irrational frequently, but for the most part I try to follow her teachings. If you are interested, you can find more information here. If you don't go there here is a synopsis of her teachings:
Objectivism rejects any form of determinism, the belief that man is a victim of forces beyond his control (such as God, fate, upbringing, genes, or economic conditions).

And with that I will leave you to consider, WHO has the RIGHT to tell ME I can't play a game, even if it waste MY own time?
Think of it like this... think of something that you enjoy doing. Something that does not affect anyone else (You know, your not a murderer or a drug dealer, but normal everyday things... like hmmm cooking, say you like to cook). Whatever it is... ok, now imagine someone telling you you can't do it anymore. Is that right? Is it fair? Shouldn't you be allowed to determine/choose the things you want to do?

Yes, you and I both should.


Dave "Dak Lozar"Loeser

Edited by - Dak Lozar on September 29, 2000 1:47:12 PM

Probably should stay out of this, but what the heck

Saying that MMORPGs should be discouraged because they take up all of your time is absurd. Your family will be neglected, your girlfriend/wife will leave you, etc etc. These things can happen if you make a lifestyle change just as easily, and who is to say what''s better for him or her but the people in question? Doing away with MMORPGs or MMOGs isn''t going to change a damn thing. Yes, spending all your time on the computer isn''t healthy, and neglecting your children is wrong, but that''s going to happen to some no matter what avenue is open to them.

If we want to play a game that we enjoy more than anything else, don''t say that''s wrong just because it isn''t right for you. Or rather, say what you like, and try to help those you can. The fact is: WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO PLAY ANY GAME WE DAMN WELL PLEASE - FOR AS LONG AS WE PLEASE, And we have the right to screw up our lives if we so desire. That''s the nature of freedom. I wouldn''t have it any other way.

Now, if you want to heal the world''s ills, go find the SOURCE of the problem and fix that. Trust me, it won''t have anything to do with computers or games or a bottle of tequilla or a can of beer or the drug of your choice. These things are the result, not the cause.

Now all this is a substantial digression from the topic. Why don''t we all get back to talking about games?

Sorry to drag this further OT, but I have question re: the time wasting thing.

Why is it socially acceptable for people to spend almost the __ENTIRETY__ of their lives training for a sport like Golf, Soccer, or US Football, but a waste when it becomes virtual? If you''re talking about doing something meaningful, I''m very hard pressed to find many activities that __ANYONE__ engages in very meaningful (especially in the very long term, heh). I think it''s a question of illogical social value, really. Sports players are paid millions. People, communities, and even countries pour huge resources into churning out the best of the best. Hell, just look at the Olympics!!!! Because there is profit and prestige, it is acceptable.

I know people who spend hours pouring over stock portfolios and speculations. I know people who are knee deep in dreaming up the next great killer business plan. And I know lots of people into gardening, fashion, or even stamp collecting. In the grand scheme, all of these things are just "wood whittling," no matter how much importance we attach to it. (Even now that I make a "pile of money" so to speak, I''m hard pressed to find what''s so meaningful about it.)

I think playing games is a very human thing. As a civilization, we''re on the cusp of virtual reality, and the presumption that the physical is more important than the mental may be swept aside as we advance. While I don''t think that detrimental obsession is ever a good thing, I am hard pressed to criticize computer games when so much human effort is devoted to gaming as a way of life.


... and trust me... "Monday Night Prime Time Virtual Championships, brought to you by Exxon-Microsoft..." it''s coming

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

Who cares? I''d say the 100K+ people who are playing EQ, Ultima, and Asheron''s, for a start.

And these games aren''t even that good. Wait until the next generation of games hits the market.