In addendum, I don't believe *every* player character should start out as an "abandoned child". Quite frankly, I don't see how you could substantiate that many abandoned children unless of course

1. this is a table top rpg and you've got four to six players who are linked together for this reason
2. something seriously awful has recently transpired in this world.

I guess #2 might fly. But in any case, please read that article in my previous post.

well, first a few comments before we get to the game, shall we?

Robert Jordan rocks! Of course there are parallels between him and Tolkein. The thing I love about his writing is that he's shameless about taking known symbols and using them to make his world better - he doesn't try to hide it, he does it for a good reason( King Arthur and Yin-Yang are my favorite two )

Ajain, the quote you used about defending the right to say it...I don't remember the exact wording, but yours is wrong. Also it was said by Voltaire. Only one of the bigger names in history... :)

..............

Now on to the game-relateds

I wouldn't worry about programming the thing. I'd start with tetris as far as programming goes, especially as you are just learning C++ - I'm not nearly good enough of a coder to do an MMO, that's why I have friends to put my design into a game.

Get all of the concept thoroughly done, have your bible, and then look to see who can code it. Concepts last forever. There may be similar games out there or coming out, but if you have good gameplay, and good code, your game will at least find a niche market. As far as game clones go, how many FPS are there out there? how many FF games? how many "traditional" feel RPGs? ( or action-adventure posing as RPG -- look at me, I have magic! That means I'm an RPG....bullshit. )

Good environmentals and excellent design are all you need to have followers. That's all it takes to make a great game. Now any other things you can do well only make your game better.

also, please never use those "working titles" you put up.

They're terrble and cliched( except perhaps the first one, which is a good poetic phrase that's probably been used before, but a a terrible title for a game ). At least spell them correctly.

None of those fit an MMO - they might by some stretch of the imagination, work for a single player, but never for a multi-player.

---------------

Just some thoughts...

New title idea: "An Illusion of Innocence"

...i'll take on the other stuff post by post:

netflow:

Quote: Question: Why on earth are you thinking of making a game that is following the exact same theme as every other online game out there? Do you purposefully want as much competition as possible? Why not come up with an original idea and theme instead of yet another medeval MMO.. You just have to look at it logically, when you have sony on one end spending countless millions on EQ2, why would anyone want to play a game that follows the same basic plot/mechanics which is made by a couple of guys in their basement?

you have either
1] never played an MMO for more than 3 months (if you did it was either UO, runescape, EQ, or some other game where there is no form of game-wide community)
2] never been scammed on an MMO...if u have even played one...

the idea of new MMO's is to have a clean slate but try to give people a game they will play for a long time too...there is more there than just a game...

------------

Nahoopii

Quote: I like the ideas youve put forth.. The idea of nirvana and multiple lives is interesting to say the least. Maybe on your next post you could expand on that. Where instead of explaining the reprocussions from killing a good or bad, what is the motivation for players to be either? New moves/skills/spells? Different areas? Different resources?

there was something I left out b4...there will be no levels and no indication of how good (not alignment...good meaning well made), balanced, terrible, or unbalanced your charachter is...the only thing that might be able to give a faint indication is age and the aura around your charachter (the idea was that when ur charachters alignment is "evil" they will get a darker aura for how evil they are [but it will always be transparent]...when they are good they will get a lighter glow)

the only new moves/skills will be those made by the charachter (although you may get "flexibility" or something like that that determines how outrageous these moves would be)...as for spells...we haven't decided completely but we want to have the four elements and have them be mixable (getting close to rj there but elemental magic has always been a big thing in D&D and all other table top RPGs...rj didn't come up with that one...)...

different areas...we (my friend and I) had decided that there would be "ancient ruins" that are infested with demonds (who also have the one-death thingy so you can irradicate demonds) but other than that it is up to staffers and mods to continue the story by building "temples" and leaving them to rot and the such...there will be no restrictions on places...the idea is freedom to die...

resources...we will have silver, gold, copper, and tin...they will be mixable (copper + tin = bronze...there must be more in there too) but, again, there will be no limits (but the higher skills you put in stuff like that the better quality the metal you find and thus the stronger/better the weapon/armor/item you make out of them)

Quote: Once you have compiled such a list, be honest with yourself. In your list, is there really enough available for either type (good or bad) that will hold the players interest long enough to play? Its easy to come up with an idea for a MMORPG, as these games are the closest to mimicing real life, thus we have the greatest grasp for these types of games.. But most players who play these games will put 100+ hours into them. Ask yourself, is reaching nirvana, and starting over really going to make enough available to the player to have them invest that kind of time? I think this is why in most MMORPGs, we have on character that grows on and on.. because its discouraging to have to start from scratch, which seems to be the premise of the game..

...flight...angel is the new class that you get...then you can fly and it is something of a hybrid (without disadvantages from any sides...just general disadvantages)...after reaching nirvana 5 times you get god and get ALL speels, ALL skills, ETERNAL life, FREEDOM to go between plains, and a few (like, 10) super spread out spells that can kill any demon within, say, 5 ingame miles in any direction...also, as for replay value, we would have at least 15 different places to be "born" on, eventually we hoped we could get up to at least 5 mirrors meaning that, because the world would be shapeable by the players, that is up to 75 re-play places...or so we hoped...in reality i doubt there will be more than 7 places and, if even this many, 2 mirrors...that is still 14 though!

Quote: Also, if there arent enough advantages to being bad, what youll have are thousands of players being good, which then removes any battle of good vs evil, in which case, it might as well be a single player game..

you get to go to hell...;)...hell is going to be like super training with "corrupt" items that are pretty much super items...also, with a "bad" alignment you can controle demonds...because there are no "good" creatures that are outside of towns (or atleast good creatures that are "good" ;)) you can't really have a following that will protect you outside of towns if you are good, whereas, if you are "evil" you can recruit demonds (enslave really) that will do your bidding...thus, if you are strong enough and evil enough you could, potentially, raid a town of good people...

---------------

serr:

Quote: Why on earth would an evil person *gain* karma for killing someone? The way your scale looks (1000 = good, 0 = bad) the more karma you have, the better person you are. What you're saying is if you're good and you kill someone, that's bad. But if you're BAD, and you kill someone, that's GOOD. Said that way, it almost makes sense...but when an evil person kills someone, they actually move CLOSER to the good side of the spectrum.

it isn't so much doing an evil deed to kill someone as a noble dead of "ridding the world of them" ;)...if your good and kill someone good thats bad...but if your good and rid the world of some bit of evil thats good...and vice versa...if your bad and kill someone good then you become badder...but if your evil and kill someone evil people then you are redemming yourself (although there will be hopefully some unbalance where if you are extremely good and kill someone else extremely good they were nearly your alignment so it isn't QUITE as bad but it is still pretty bad)...also, we hoped to set up a "duel" system where you could duel someone and not get karma penalties for killing them...

Quote: Graphics engine, server security, server stability, sound recording, music composition and recording, integration of music into the game, design for non-player foes and characters, and...well, there is an article on this site that may help you.

graphics engine---we don't know...perhaps ...allegro was it... one of those sorts of libraries...

server security, stability---we have no idea...that is where we would have to recruit someone when we know enough or read the 1000 page manuels and take notes...or take a course if there is such a thing...we could find a way probably...

music---not all MMO's have music...my evidence? astonia III again...if ours would it would either be written, recorded, and played by me on the piano or else made by some sort of bad midi writer then converted to a wav sound file that people would probably just turn off and listen to MP3's behind it...as for sound effects there are plenty of places out there you can find them (smaller sites) for free that they would probably just let you mention them in the credits and put a mini banner up in a frame on the hoepage

integration--we aren't sure what we're going to use...probably another free library...

design for NPFs and NPCs--are you talking about the graphics or the AI? the AI is another place we would recruit but the graphics (we would probably use a free model and edit it for our needs and then give it a new skin and make sure that flew by the maker of the origional)...we would probably edit the models with milkshape (the only thing we might pay for a full version of!) or the free maya 5 but you can't use that for commercial things like this would be so...

Quote:
In addendum, I don't believe *every* player character should start out as an "abandoned child". Quite frankly, I don't see how you could substantiate that many abandoned children unless of course

1. this is a table top rpg and you've got four to six players who are linked together for this reason
2. something seriously awful has recently transpired in this world.

I guess #2 might fly. But in any case, please read that article in my previous post.

not everyone would be an abandoned child...there WOULD be a small amount of abandoned children...

7% +/- of new charachters would be abandoned children
23% +/- would wake up in an ally or forest with "no recolection of what just happened" and "a bump on their head"
50% would be children of people who had decided to make an extra heir (the slack would be picked up by NPC families)
20% +/- would appear from "a different, unknown plane" infront of a well/portal...these would probably be in teh middle of a city...

make more sence?

-Ajain

I also suggest you have a look at "How to build an MMOG" on Stratics Central:


But, all that aside, I do like the basic idea. It's just htat you need to recognize that it's a small fraction of enough of an idea to make a game around.

Quote: Original post by redmilamber
I also suggest you have a look at "How to build an MMOG" on Stratics Central:


But, all that aside, I do like the basic idea. It's just htat you need to recognize that it's a small fraction of enough of an idea to make a game around.

..."no right or wrong way"...helbreth...wasn't helbreth that way? 2 "villages" at war...

and how far can you really take good/evil w/o making it really dramatic and getting rid of all the non-soap-opera-watching people?

-Ajain

Quote: Original post by Ajain
..."no right or wrong way"...helbreth...wasn't helbreth that way? 2 "villages" at war...

Yeah, that's one that came and went. I kept hearing it was "doing much better in Korea", but even the Korean domain disappeared off the net for long periods. I think they started again with a sequel using the same name but a rewrite?

I gotta say it.. Your replies just dont do it for me.. You really think that playeres would invest that kind of time only to have the option of flying around? Between 2 planes? Where in one plane there are only players who have previously died, and havent started their new lives yet with the reborn selves? Why would I want to do that? Why would anyone play on the other plane anyway? Isnt the point to start again in the first place? I understand that players would be attached to their older more established selves, but now you are only contradicting the original idea for your game!

I guess that something I hate about forums like this.. If you constructivly critisize someones work, instead of that person taking it seriously, it seems that they always scurry around for the most immediate and applicable answer..

So Ajain, the resources you named off dont have anything to do with being good or bad, or how many times youve been reborn.. Tin to me on my first go round with the game, is still going to be Tin on my last.. (which ironically would probably be within the same go round anyway)

Let me ask you like this then.. Whats the difference between me starting the game, and me having been through 2 games lives with my character, and starting for the third time.. I get to fly? (well yippee)..Honelstly buddy (remember this is someone who did at one point have an interest) its just not enough.. At least, not enough to conversate about here in the boards.. at least.. not yet..

I doubt this will be taken to heart, but I will say it anyway.

Put dreams of making a MMO on the back burner for the time being. Resolve to make a game, only one with a much smaller scope. Perhaps start with a 2D action game with a similar setting that you wanted for your MMO. If you succeed in this, you could try making a single player RPG. Continuing in this venture, continue to create larger games, probably recruiting help from others along the way. Learn from your mistakes.

I suggest this so you don't jump headfirst into a large project and get overwhelmed by details, because regardless of your intentions that is what will happen, and if you are like 99% of the people in the world you will lose interest and the project will never be completed.

Swallow your pride and realize that you will have the most chances at accomplishing your dreams by starting small and working up from there.

I presume you didn't read the article I posted. I do recommend it once more though.

And I recommend Dungeons and Dragons until you've programmed a tetris clone.