hmm, well it is tough problem of how to manage an empire in an RPG type system. I agree that npc are the key.

So if we break down an empire into parts maybe the answer will reveal its self.

1)Assets - what the empire owns.
2)Ventures - Projects and plans the empire is persuing.
3)Management - who controls what and is doing what.

So if the player works at like that it could be do able. They assign assets to diffrent npcs who they want to manage and use them. Assets would also include personal. Then when the player wants to do something on the imperical level they do it by creating a venture, and then assiging people and assets to persue the venture. Some ventures would take several stages of ventures to complete, some would be permanet others limited duration.

so lets consider the play want to build a Dilithium Mine.
1) Create a venture - Type:Minerial recon - Dillithium.
Required personal - at least 1 one capatain in charge of a scout ship equiped with mineral scanners.
Projected cost - 25,000 c
* the player then assigns one or more captain in charge of the correct type of vessels. The chance of success and the length of time requied depends on chance, and the personal and vessel stats.*
*after the venture is succesful*


2) Create venture - Type:Aquire moon - legel -
Required personal - Legel expert, Finicial Expert.
Projected cost - 5,000,000 c
*chance of success and cost depends on the skill of the assigned personal*


3) Create Venture - Type:Establish lunar mine
Requied assets - Lunar Mining platform, Mineral storage facility
Requied personal - depends on equipment used.
optional assets - Defence turrets, barracks.
projected cost - depends on equipment

4) Create Venture - Type:Frieghter route
requied personal - at least 1 captain in charage of general class cargo frieghter.
projected cost - 50,000 c
Thats one way to go about things, although it still requies some mangement but and establishment of the ventures but once they are up and running the rest would be basiclly automated and run like you stated earilier. The player could choose to upgrade, change or cancel a venture as time went on should they wish.

Quote:

Original post by Way Walker Quote: This depends on the personality, competence of the NPC and the venture. There'll be a strategy to match NPC with environment: Put mavericks in new territory to deal with threats and change, politician personalities in established empires, bezerkers next to pirates, etc., etc. Sounds almost like "Rock-Paper-Scissors". I suppose that'll be prevented somewhat by not always having the right NPC for the job, and perhaps by what your goal with the territory is? Or am I at too low a level and the question is less about choices of who'll manage your territory and more about why you chose the territory in the first place? (e.g. You have no bezerkers under you and you knew there were pirate about, so why in the world did you try to keep that territory?)

Man, these are insightful questions, thank you! I think it'll be more detailed than rock / paper / sissors.

Part of the strategy should come from finding and spending resources to train and retain a particular NPC. You'll have to interact with them enough to make them extremely loyal, and this will send you off on missions and get you into what I hope will be many interesting situations.

Another part of the strategy will involve growth and the map itself. You may level up an NPC to be a great administrator for a territory earlier in the game. But then the regions around the territory, which you want to expand into, might be pirate plagued on all sides. Since you have a pool of NPCs limited by your own character's stats, you'll have to be thinking of future strategic growth when you place someone in a territory: Can you acquire the surrounding territory? Will it be a future threat? Can your NPC manage the surrounding territory if you can acquire it?

The last piece of this, which I've mentioned here before, is that the game will be playing against itself in a thread in the background, using Risk-style rules to change the political landscape with war, expansion and negotiation. So if your territory is on the border of a hostile empire, that could be a future threat.

Quote:

I wasn't thinking quite so grand with that statement. I was more curious about what is the minimum dependence on NPC's (which is why I paired it with a question about auto-pilot. I.e. what is the maximum dependence on NPC's). So, it sounds like if I'd rather blow stuff up, there'll be safe and stable choices with "enough" pay off to support my purchase of toys. If I prefer the tycoon aspect, I assume there'll be choices that take a bit more management to be successful, but have higher payoffs?

Yes, for the more tycoon aspect there will be inbuilt "Policies" that you switch to which you'll already be familiar with once you get even one crew to join you. These function as stat modifiers with possible events being generated as a result. A combat policy might be "Meatgrinder" which gives you a higher combat advantage in conflict, but increases the likelihood of rebellion; another might be "On Account" which reduces prices caused by labor (because they're charged for everything, even air) but requires bigger bonus payouts at the end of a mission / venture.

Quote:

Yeah... should probably ignore that bit. I shouldn't post when half asleep.

Hah, you should see the game ideas I come up with at 3 am. :>

Quote:

Original post by Moogle The more I read about Wavinators design, the more I am loving it. Basically, it is turning into the game that I have always wanted to make or play. I really hope it's gonna make it off the paper.

Thanks for the encouragement! I'm psyched up by knowing that there are others out there who want this level of open-endedness and am going to do everything I can to make this managable and doable.

Quote:

I would make it so that you interface with all this by simply having conversations/meetings with the NPCs ... so they would tell you how it is going, and you would give them advice and or orders. I also think that would make it feel more RPGish.

This I think is an excellent idea. It firstly cuts down on some of the graphics and interface load by shifting it over to conversation and reports.

I'm thinking that the way it'll work is that you will get alerts, based on priority. You'll access this stuff from conversation, but also be able to switch to the overworld map. When a report or alert happens, the map will switch to the area in question, giving you both a quick spatial and contextual sense of what's going on where. It might work much like the diplomacy system in Alpha Centauri and Civilization, but sprinkled with colorful phrases that highlight an NPC's personality.

What's good about this is that there's room for some drama: Reports will be based on communications ability, so if there's an anomaly in the area or war, or you're engaged in clandestine activities, these reports may come by messenger or require meetings. This in turn may force you to leave your lair and make secret rendezvous, or acquire the resources to deal with danger. (I'm thinking mob meetings, or even the secret rendezvous in Babylon 5 or many spy stories).

Quote:

Don't be afraid to blend genres. Specially not RPG and management ... they go so well together even though you get to see so little of it.

I know what you mean. In Morrowind I was so engaged and interested when I started working for House Hlaalu on the business of expanding house holdings. But unfortunately they were just a string of missions, and I wanted to be more instrumental in shaping the land.

I think giving players the ability to gain ground is the only besides story to make a significant impact on the world-- and it's the only replayable way in a cRPG that I know of.

Quote:

Original post by TechnoGoth hmm, well it is tough problem of how to manage an empire in an RPG type system. I agree that npc are the key. So if we break down an empire into parts maybe the answer will reveal its self. 1)Assets - what the empire owns. 2)Ventures - Projects and plans the empire is persuing. 3)Management - who controls what and is doing what. So if the player works at like that it could be do able. They assign assets to diffrent npcs who they want to manage and use them. Assets would also include personal. Then when the player wants to do something on the imperical level they do it by creating a venture, and then assiging people and assets to persue the venture. Some ventures would take several stages of ventures to complete, some would be permanet others limited duration.

Thanks, TechnoGoth, this is exactly what I had in mind. The assets would control what you can do (mine, ship goods, fight other factions, etc). They would summarize ships / bases, personnel and equipment. The asset itself could change in functionality due to damage, changes in makeup caused by enemy factions (kidnapping, theft), or changes you've made (reinforcement, reorganization, etc.)

The ventures would be whatever missions you've assigned for the asset. The venture (I like that name better) would modify values in the map out to a distance that represented the scale and power of the venture. So setting up an armored station equipped with starfighters in pirate controlled space would slowly erode the map stat of piracy in the area. As it did so, it would occassionally generate events, such as hostile reactions, treasure caches liberated from pirates, etc.

Finally, the NPC manager would act as an essential modifier to all of this and be a management interface with the player. There'd be both strategy and drama with the NPC, in that they could be extorted by enemies, abducted, assassinated, grow corrupt, be incompetent or a loose cannon.

Quote:

so lets consider the play want to build a Dilithium Mine. 1) Create a venture - Type:Minerial recon - Dillithium. Required personal - at least 1 one capatain in charge of a scout ship equiped with mineral scanners. Projected cost - 25,000 c * the player then assigns one or more captain in charge of the correct type of vessels. The chance of success and the length of time requied depends on chance, and the personal and vessel stats.* *after the venture is succesful* 2) Create venture - Type:Aquire moon - legel - Required personal - Legel expert, Finicial Expert. Projected cost - 5,000,000 c *chance of success and cost depends on the skill of the assigned personal* 3) Create Venture - Type:Establish lunar mine Requied assets - Lunar Mining platform, Mineral storage facility Requied personal - depends on equipment used. optional assets - Defence turrets, barracks. projected cost - depends on equipment 4) Create Venture - Type:Frieghter route requied personal - at least 1 captain in charage of general class cargo frieghter. projected cost - 50,000 c Thats one way to go about things, although it still requies some mangement but and establishment of the ventures but once they are up and running the rest would be basiclly automated and run like you stated earilier. The player could choose to upgrade, change or cancel a venture as time went on should they wish.

Yeah, I could see this as really being the way to go.

The only thing I'd add is the ability to collapse and combine some of the steps automatically the more skilled and experienced the NPC is.

With a junior level NPC, you have to script all of these things and do a bit of babysitting. I think this is actually very good because in the beginning, you're going to have less NPCs and less property, so you'll have more to do.

Later on, you'll get tired of doing every step, and I think you may welcome a layer of automation whereby you can hire a top flight mining manager and just say: Set me up a mine in this territory, and come back with a couple of strategies, one of which you okay.

Quote:

Original post by Wavinator Part of the strategy should come from finding and spending resources to train and retain a particular NPC. You'll have to interact with them enough to make them extremely loyal, and this will send you off on missions and get you into what I hope will be many interesting situations.

So, perhaps you can tame a berzerker to some extent, and light a fire under a more laid back manager? Also, I didn't mean too much by the rock-paper-scissors thing, because, abstracted enough, most games can be considered to take that form.

Quote:

What's good about this is that there's room for some drama: Reports will be based on communications ability, so if there's an anomaly in the area or war, or you're engaged in clandestine activities, these reports may come by messenger or require meetings. This in turn may force you to leave your lair and make secret rendezvous, or acquire the resources to deal with danger. (I'm thinking mob meetings, or even the secret rendezvous in Babylon 5 or many spy stories).

Based on communication ability? Will some NPC's give you too little/too much information? Will some exagerate/play down the situation? Any backstabbing among your NPC's (stealing credit, shifting of blame, etc.) or the opposite (modest, taking full responsibility for failures, giving credit to others, etc.)? I suppose that's off topic, so... *cough* *strays back on topic*

Quote:

I think giving players the ability to gain ground is the only besides story to make a significant impact on the world-- and it's the only replayable way in a cRPG that I know of.

I suppose this was in another thread, but all this talk of growth got me wondering if there's any end to it? Not that there's anything wrong with not having an end (it would lose some draw for me, but that's about it), but just curious.

Perhaps you could automate the system I suggested a step furthur by allowing for player created divisions. A division would control assets, have its own mangement structure and pursue ventures.

So if the player wanted to get into the mining buisness they could do it by creating a new division which they call "United Mining Consortium". The player then chooses an npc to mange the division, depending on the npc skills, abilites and rank it would determine how many ventures and how much assets they can effectivly run. Now that the player has created the division it transfers some personal, survey ships, a mining station, a couple of frieghters and a large sum cash to that divisions control. Then creates a found dilthium mine venture and the rest is automated. Depending on the assets the division has they may have to send a request to you for more assets in order to complete the mission.

You could even take it a little farther and allow for the player to assign varying levels of independance to a division. Such as:
1)allow creation of new ventures
2)allow acquistion of new assets
3)etc...

Quote:

Original post by Way Walker So, perhaps you can tame a berzerker to some extent, and light a fire under a more laid back manager?

Yes, using the same form of interaction you would if the player were a hireling on your ship (actions like commend, praise, berate, etc.)

Quote:

Also, I didn't mean too much by the rock-paper-scissors thing, because, abstracted enough, most games can be considered to take that form.

That's cool, I just didn't want to give the impression that it was cookie cutter strategy, which would get really boring I think.

Quote:

Based on communication ability? Will some NPC's give you too little/too much information? Will some exagerate/play down the situation? Any backstabbing among your NPC's (stealing credit, shifting of blame, etc.) or the opposite (modest, taking full responsibility for failures, giving credit to others, etc.)?

Yes, in addition to actual physical problems getting in touch with you due to comms blackouts (maybe you're warping or there's a disaster nearby or whatever), NPCs have personalities and possibly even motives which will color the information and influence events.

For instance, there's an Arrogant personality type who inflates chances for success as a side effect of who he/she is.

If an NPC has been co-opted by an enemy faction, they may give you glowing reports when things are bad or bad reports when things are good. A part of your defense is to either raise their loyalty astronomically high (to a level called Devotion, where they literally commit body and soul to your efforts), keep your head down, or check on things yourself.

Quote:

I suppose this was in another thread, but all this talk of growth got me wondering if there's any end to it? Not that there's anything wrong with not having an end (it would lose some draw for me, but that's about it), but just curious.

Where would you be more comfortable with the growth level stopping, and is there anything that the game could do to address concerns you have with it becoming overwhelming?

With growth it seems to me that context is a big deal. If I tell you that you can own up to 25 things and interact with them in a limited number of ways, would you care what those things were? If I tell you that it's 25 bases or 25 entire planets, but that the interface control is the same but impact on the game world is different, is that overwhelming?

I've been examining with the idea of where growth should naturally stop myself, and I know I'm sort of cheating by making it "25 things." But I have a Warlord and an Administrator character classand was thinking, "if you can successfully acquire enough power, why should the game stop you from conquering huge regions of space?" If the galaxy itself could be broken up into 3-25 sectors I think it would be one hell of a way to end an RPG to control that space, especially if you started out as a broke immigrant with barely enough to afford a shuttle.

i think you should also allow for the player to "jump in" and take over a venture/company/division/consortium personally (assuming that they can get to the appropriate location), although it might affect the loyalty of the NPC who was just displaced by your presence. or, it could be expected, just like how darth vader showed up when the death star was about to be powered up.

and it would be really nifty if you accidentally assigned a corruptable NPC to manage a large operation, and there is the possibility of finding out they are skimming off the top.

just my 2 cents. i can't wait unil this one hits the shelves.

Quote:

Original post by krez i think you should also allow for the player to "jump in" and take over a venture/company/division/consortium personally (assuming that they can get to the appropriate location), although it might affect the loyalty of the NPC who was just displaced by your presence. or, it could be expected, just like how darth vader showed up when the death star was about to be powered up.

"The Em.. Emperor is coming here?"
"Yes! And he will be MOST disturbed at your LACK of progress..."
[grin]

I would love to allow you to jump in on any venture, but the problem with that is that it would mean that every venture would have to be detailed, and each venture would have to be different or people would complain that mining/colonizing/invasion/etc. are all the same.

The closest gameplay to running a venture would be running a starship or base. Aside from the stuff that happens outside your ship, which is mostly combat, stealth and trade, what happens inside your ship/base is only interacting with your crew and assigning them to stations where they do skill tests.

If you could run a mining station, for instance, what would the gameplay be? And would it be so far beyond what you're used to as to be another game. What about a resort? A colony? A manufacturing consortium?

Quote:

and it would be really nifty if you accidentally assigned a corruptable NPC to manage a large operation, and there is the possibility of finding out they are skimming off the top.

Yes, this is definitely going to be a part, as is the ability to assign more loyal NPCs to the same venture to watch them.

Quote:

just my 2 cents. i can't wait unil this one hits the shelves.

:P Thanks for the enthusiasm!