I know this is a blanket statement, so my apologies to the pros out there, but this really gets me. In most (or at least many) corners of the world there are business development offices CRYING for new opportunities to fund. So why does every amateur walking along the path to "the industry" look like an underpants gnome scheme, that is: 1. Make free games 2. Put up a website 3. ...? 4. PROFIT! What's wrong with some good old-fashioned market research, a business plan, then a demo, then going out and GETTING SOME CASH? Am I out to lunch here? I understand how this stuff can happen when the team is doing a mod, although even a mod can be run in a businesslike manner with a little foresight and elbow grease. Is the problem maybe that while there are lots of amateur DEVELOPERS, there aren't that many amateur businessmen? I'd have thought the entrepreneur set could soak up as many serious developers as could be found on a cold day in the hot place, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm not asking idly, btw. I want to go very quickly from very small projects to salable projects without having to service the publisher in some unforgivable manner. I'm coming from a background rich in business - not only did my dad run half a dozen stores of his own devising, but one of my best buds also has the business bug pretty bad. They haven't had a hard time explaining the very simple steps and opportunities available, nor have I had to look far to find a business development helper organization. So naturally, I think my dreams are entirely realistic. Again, is this out to lunch, or are there just very few mature efforts in the indie scene? Edit: Silly extra word deleted [Edited by - liquiddark on July 26, 2004 8:39:28 PM]

I don't have time to finish reading, but Iagree 100% with you, man. I'll say more later.

[Edited by - thedevdan on July 28, 2004 2:36:35 AM]

I agree 100%, and in fact I recently started working with a game company where we do exactly what you say... In fact (and many people may not like this), we design a lot of the game around the business plan.

Hi,

as a former professional game developer (http://www.sun-a-moon.org) I must say that things aren't as easy as you might think.

First of all, it depends a bit on the region (country) where you are living. While the US or UK based companies are considered as being a real part of the economy, the german game developer is almost pushed into the "you're doing toys" corner.

This leads to the problem that german game developers (or teams who want to develop games) don't get a penny if they don't fund it by themself by +-80%. If they didn't already release a game before, the chances of getting a fund is equal to nil. Even if the different team member have a strong background of game development. I had the case and I can tell you that it isn't funny to run around with a business plan, a tech demo and a game design concept and getting nothing but "You're forming a new team... publish a game before you come to ask for money..."

It's possible that the situation is quite different in the states or the uk, but on the european continent the hurdles are to high for so much people...

Best regards,
Stefan

1. Most developers are creative and by their very nature not businesslike. They don't unedrstand the concepts and prefer to focus on making the games.

2. Most investors actually wouldn't touch game development with a long pole because the game dev business model simply doesn't suit their type of investment (put money in, company expands dramatically, get 300-500% return on investment in 5 years).

Hi,

I'm a professional game-developer by day, but by night I still do some work on my own stuff.

I think the reason that a lot of amateur project never makes it to the commercial stage is simply because it is only a hobby, and pursuing a commercial avenue changes that. It started out for me as a hobby, I was just lucky enough that I found someone that was willing to pay me to do it full-time!

You have a different outlook on your professional projects from your amateur projects. With professional/commercial projects the emphasis is all about getting it done on schedule and on budget, and that is the primary objective, it is a business. With amateur projects you've got a lot more scope to pursue the things that interest you.

Recently at home I've been tackling the problem of creating an algorithm that splits a general (2D) polygon in to convex sub-polygons. This was a problem I came across, it interested me, I could see that it required some thought, so I followed it. I could afford to do that at home whereas maybe I wouldn't be able to at work.....

JJ.

Quote: Original post by Obscure
2. Most investors actually wouldn't touch game development with a long pole because the game dev business model simply doesn't suit their type of investment (put money in, company expands dramatically, get 300-500% return on investment in 5 years).

I agree with your first point, but I have trouble with this one. For one, I don't think it's necessary to get VCs involved for reasonably-scaled development efforts. You should be able to find $50,000 without any trouble whatsoever just from business development organizations, as long as you put the work in. On top of that, many or even most of the people who are trying to do this are under the magical 29-year-old barrier where you have literally tens of thousands of dollars available which is authorized to be used as capital against ANOTHER loan! It's hard for me to swallow the argument that funding isn't available, at least in North America.

Quote: Original post by Metron
While the US or UK based companies are considered as being a real part of the economy, the german game developer is almost pushed into the "you're doing toys" corner.

I don't know how long ago you were talking to folks, but the Berlin Economic Development site have the following note on their site:

Quote: From http://www.blc.berlin.de/wfb/en/Medienwirtschaft.html
Berlin is becoming the boom town for up-and-coming video game companies"

Maybe it's time to take another look?

Quote: If they didn't already release a game before, the chances of getting a fund is equal to nil. Even if the different team member have a strong background of game development. I had the case and I can tell you that it isn't funny to run around with a business plan, a tech demo and a game design concept and getting nothing but "You're forming a new team... publish a game before you come to ask for money..."

This much I have seen for myself, although where I live there are lots of youth programs that will offer loans to startup businesses run by sub-30-year-olds. It'd probably be worth looking into if you still have the dream.

Interesting post with some valid points. I'll speak from my experience here (having developed several small games over my hobby career) - I simply don't have the motivation to get a game up that's 100% polished and sellable on the open market. To me, most of the fun is getting something up and running, looking half decent (ok, maybe crappy), playing fairly well and impressing myself (and maybe my friends). Most of my 'fun' is gained from the challenge of hobby coding, I have made no claim to desire a job doing it. In fact, I'd see employment in the game industry as maybe killing my hobby, but as I'm not there, I wouldn't know [grin].

I read somewhere that

Quote: "After you finish the first 90% of a project, you have to finish the other 90%."

This is pretty much why I'd never work to sell my games, I can't imagine it being 'fun' to impose a crunch time upon myself - running around fixing every bug and making the game play totally balanced. It's these sort of stresses I could definitely do without, I can imagine other people would echo that (yes, I know it's probably laziness too).

I see your original point and these were just my views on myself; there are some very good looking indie games out there that are going for nothing (or next to nothing).
It would be cool to see some of the games I'm seeing from people on these very forums on sale in my highstreet shop. If you think back to the days of the Amiga, people like Andy Davidson created Worms in his spare time. He took his demo to Team17 at a games conference and made a living from it. I guess there's just a huge decline in hobbyist motivations for selling their games - probably for some of the reasons I talked about above.

For better or worse, most companies are beginning to take a very “business like” approach to development. This is not the case with everyone, but the trend seems to be increasing. Even for small projects, I know of a number of development houses that have started bringing in “suits” part time to help shape thing.

On the other hand, we will always have a large amount of free game, ¾ complete demos, etc. More and more development houses want to see what you are capable of before they hire someone fresh out of school (haven’t they always…). They are not looking for completed projects but rather particular pieces where you (or a small group) excelled in a design. This counts more as portfolio development, but it is hard times difficult to tell the difference from looking at a website.