I was just reading athena''s post on her (?) game in design and she was asking if she thought there was a market for this game. The last poster (at the time of writing this) alluded to stealing some of the ideas mentioned. they were joking of course, but it got me thinking. is there some assumption of ownership of ideas here? or is everything that is written public property and can be used by any one? i would like to think that if i posted an idea i wanted suggestions for the idea would stay mine and not be stolen by another. has anyone else thought about this? is there some rules i am not aware of? <(o)>

You know, this one bugs me alot. I know I''ll get zero agreement, but I have a severe problem with the idea of idea ownership in the first place. Similar people think in remarkably similar ways. People who have grown up playing the same games, reading the same books, watching the same movies, and generally getting the same input will give (not exactly the same, but) similar output.

I''ll respect anyone who asks me not to use something they''ve come up with. Put I''ve decided not to be paranoid about it because 1) I know people have already thought about what I''m designing, 2) execution and finished product count more than the best ideas (wish it wasn''t true, but it is), 3) even if I don''t do it the industry will at least be better if somebody does, and 4) nobody but a complete loon would be crazy enough to try to design what I''m attempting.

BTW, if you know you''ve got the next Tetris and you can beat everyone else to market, you probably wouldn''t want to be talking about it out loud anyway. Hence we don''t have folks (AFAIK) from Blizzard or Black Isle Studios posting.

And even if someone takes your idea, remember that even one idea can be implemented in a myriad different ways.

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Just waiting for the mothership...

Here''s a little secret of mine. What i do is to make posts and threads on a wide variety of game design issues so people will not know what i''m doing. This way people won''t try to do what i do. A rather essentric copyright system i use but i like it

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

Paul: LoL


Ideally, we all sort of inspire each other and add to one another''s ideas. I agree w/ you, Wav. A game can use the same idea as another and how it is presented can change it. Look at the general concept for 90% of the FPS''s. Same concept, slightly different package....and there''s a market for a lot of them at one time.

I agree with Wav. Our "4x space strategy" game is in some respects frighteningly similar to Master of Orion 3 (eg. theoretical and applied science separated), BUT we thought about that idea before MOO3 was even announced. Great minds think alike, eh?

-Jussi

Look at it this way:
Any idea posted here is public property, unless it has been previously copyrighted. If it HAS been previously copyrighted, it should be clearly mentioned in the message, because it may lead to people building off of these ideas, and ending up in legal trouble.

So no, you have no rights to the ideas you post here, except maybe being the inventor of the idea. In this community, that is not a problem, since we''re all about sharing ideas.
How much is an idea worth anyway? Good ideas are a dime a dozen. Making them WORK is another thing. Have a good listen to what Mike Abrash has to say about things like that and you''ll understand.


People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~

For those of you who wonder, you can''t protect an idea.
According to the laws of copyright, you can only protect the application of an idea... (wow, my lecture WAS useful after all).
Of course, that''s different if you are talking about a patent, or a license ... it''s all about money The more money, the more you can protect your ideas implementation.
If you want hours of fun, read Appler vs Microsoft, then Microsoft vs Netscape, Borland vs Lotus ... God, I would LMAO if Quake had attempted to sue al lthe other games using the same controls

As for is it ethical, well, the question is really a personal one. Are you actually stealing something, and making it your own, or are you deciding to add something to already existing similar concepts to improve them ? I am not sure it''s honest. Just look at Microsoft and their Borg politics (someone pharased that much better than me, I think it was along the line of "Deny, Embrace, Monopolise"). They take other people ideas, and improve them (well, theoretically )
As well, what do you call all the clones that came up after Dune 2 (for the too young to know, it was the first RTS) ? Are they not ''stealing'' the idea ? Because really, what did we get since Dune 2 that wasn''t there in the beginning (and I don''t talk about features here).

aDasTRa, to answer more clearly your question, yes there are laws to protect peoples creation (not ideas, really), but laws don''t replace the simple fact of having ethics, and just like doing it here, questioning the validity of your own acts.
A LOT of problems could be avoided if people where thinking a little bit more.
It''s all about education, really ...

youpla :-P

You cannot copyright an idea. For example, you cannot copyright something like, "a game that has spaceships in it." What you *can* copyright is the actual text you write based on your idea. You couldn''t copyright the concept above, but you *could* copyright, "The planet of Taurus was the only planet in the galaxy to create space travel. The space ships were oval in shape, with blinking lights all over them. They were like beacons in the vast darkness of space."

If you encountered someone else doing a game that has spaceships (say, a Star Trek game), you couldn''t sue them for having the same idea or vice versa. But if you encountered a novel that had a paragraph like this, you could sue: "The planet of Tanex was the only planet in the universe to create space travel. The space ships they made were round in shape, with bright lights all over them. They were like lamps in the darkness of space."

Obviously, this just covers writing. The code you write for a game and the art you do fall under different kinds of protection that I am not as familiar with.

Copyright states that the moment you put your words down somewhere, you own them. You don''t have to apply for a copyright to own your own writing; you automatically do (at least in the U.S.). The issue is proving that you own them, if someone ever steals them from you. If you want to be prepared for such a situation, make a copy of your written work and mail it to yourself. The post office''s stamp is official and as long as you don''t open the package (when you receive it, just put it away), the date on it will be considered the date of your copyright by any court judge. If you want to be extra careful, you can send in your writing to the copyright office to get "officially" copyrighted, but that will cost you money. Check out copyright.com to find out more.

Don''t worry too much about posting here and getting your ideas "stolen". If you have written a story, it is unlikely someone will actually copy the story and use it as their own. Any professional writer will tell you that that rarely happens (mostly because people want to write their own stories). If you have shared an idea, you have lost nothing if someone else uses it, because you never owned it to begin with. If you want to keep an idea private, then don''t share it, but be aware that your idea may not be as original as you think. It is a fact that in Hollywood agents and studios often received pitches from completely different individuals about the same idea at *exactly* the same time (in the same month, for example). This happens often enough that people in Hollywood are used to it. The inspiration you use for an idea may be an inspiration that is available to others and causes them to create similar ideas without ever having come into contact with you. Get used to people having ideas similar to yours. If you share your ideas with others, get used to them using the ideas as building blocks for their own ideas. What you can make completely yours, and yours alone, is the actual text, plot, little details of the story or game you create from your idea. That stuff belongs to you and you can protect it if you want. If you protect it, you need not worry about sharing it with the world, because if they break the law and steal it, you can take it to court and the judge will be on your side.

Just let me emphasize that people *rarely* go to court over these things. Mostly what happens is a group of friends share ideas with each other and then get mad when they all end up writing similar stories. That puts a rift in their friendship. If you share the ideas you come up with, be willing to let other people use them.

thanks for the responses everyone...i knew one could not legally own just an idea; i was wondering if these discussion forums had some kind of rules (written or simply understood) regarding this. if not, should we look into making any? would you people be interested in this? i guess it would be kinda hard to control, though, and too much conrol would turn these forums into some paranoid angry place.

i am not especially concerned with someone stealing a great idea of mine here; i would hope that if any one was inspired by anything i or someone else wrote they would ask permission to use the idea. im not talking a formal afedavit or anything, just a "hey, that sound''s cool, mind if i use it in my game?" maybe i am alone in this, but i dont think so.

i guess what i am concerned about is people beginning to hold back ideas, not posting because they are worried they will get ripped off. if we want a free exchange of ideas here we should be able to feel secure about posting new ideas.

but as a couple people said above, the implementation really counts, not just the idea. and unless we share freely we wont know just how revolutionary (or not as the case may be) our ideas are...



<(o)>

quote: Original post by aDasTRa

i was wondering if these discussion forums had some kind of rules (written or simply understood) regarding this. if not, should we look into making any? would you people be interested in this? i guess it would be kinda hard to control, though, and too much conrol would turn these forums into some paranoid angry place.

The tough thing is that we don''t have some kind of peer system where we''re publishing work and other people are quoting it. This is the point where you get bibliographies sizable enough to be used as lethal weapons.

I think we''re much more informal here.

quote:
i am not especially concerned with someone stealing a great idea of mine here; i would hope that if any one was inspired by anything i or someone else wrote they would ask permission to use the idea. im not talking a formal afedavit or anything, just a "hey, that sound''s cool, mind if i use it in my game?" maybe i am alone in this, but i dont think so.

When I''m inspired by someone I usually try to note that or even link to their message. But the hard thing is: how do you know exactly what has inspired you? Credit is difficult when you don''t know exactly what has sparked you in the first place.

And again, I also chaff under the notion that someone "owns" an idea. How do I know that my awesome, one in a million concept isn''t something you''ve been thinking of for awhile but haven''t gotten around to posting? I''ve seen that happen a dozen times since I''ve been on this board.

quote:
i guess what i am concerned about is people beginning to hold back ideas, not posting because they are worried they will get ripped off. if we want a free exchange of ideas here we should be able to feel secure about posting new ideas.

Attribution is civil and respectful, but I think raising it beyond a politeness into rules or etiquette is a really bad idea that could inspire squabbling and hurt feelings. If you''re exchanging ideas here, part of the "risk" is that they may inspire and empower someone else. Now I''m of the mindset that that is actually a good thing. I''d be happy if my idea inspired someone, or if they took it and ran with it, because my **implementation** is likely to differ. There''s room for both of us, is what I''m saying.

And besides, if you''ve got a great idea, what''s your motive for posting here anyway? If both you and I do a Starflight style RPG empire game, I wanna play your game too!!!!! So if I help you make it good, I get to benefit as well!





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Just waiting for the mothership...