I, like too many other hobbyists, am trying to create an RPG. However, I don't just want to copy my favorite game. I want to improve the genre's gameplay. Here is a quote from a different thread:

Quote: Original post by Ravelin How about a change of pace. It seems to me that experience gain in a group is a solved problem. There's ten different mmorpg's out there that do it. The wheel is already round, why make it square? Instead, if you really want to innovate, pull back out a level. Why have experience points at all? Is there a better way to track progress? If you want to really open your mind, ask yourself if you need a mechanism to track progress at all. Here's the thing, if we look at mmorpg's as an extension of table-top RPG's -- which, in my opinion is an apt analogy -- let's look at the most well known of them all. AD&D. That game is more about party interaction and problem solving than it is about getting to the next level. If you wan't to design an mmorpg with the prototypical level treadmill, I wish you all the luck in the world, but it will take a lot more than a multiplying an experience number by .32 instead of .25779 to make yourself stand out in the crowd.

Although I'm not making a MMORPG I believe that this still applies to me. I'm not going as far as he suggests as NPC's can't be that good (IMHO), but I want to get rid of old-fashioned levels. Instead, characters gain experience by doing things. If your character attacks a monster with his sword, he will become stronger. If he heals other characters he will become better at healing. I have it set up so moves (attacks, spells, defending, whatever) increase the character's stats, which are much more extensive that the average RPG's and could also be considered skills. For example, there are five weapon stats used to calculate damage instead of the standard str. (W for Weapon, that's the page in the UI) WAgility - the speed that a character attacks WForce - how hard a character hits WFinesse - 'skill' or art, critical hits WParry - using the sword to block attacks WSmithing - weapon maintenance, creation, and repair Players can choose what skills they focus on by using different moves or letting the helper AI decide. A player could set up a shortcut to FastAttack, StrongAttack, etc. or just use AIAttack and let the AI choose based on the current status of the battle and the character's stats and preferences. For the magic system, called Ether, I have several sets of stats: (E for Ether) EFlow - the amount of ether a character can handle EDetect - how the character can detect or 'see' ether (there will be far more than the standard ice/fire/bolt, there should be some strategy to ether) EStealth - how the character resists others' detection EKnowlege - characters can attempt to identify what other characters are doing (automatic), also helps learn new abilities EDexterity - how good the character is at small-scale things There is also one stat for each of the five elements, the four standard ones and pure ether EFire EWater EWind EEarth EEnergy There are stats for different types of ether, as well. ECreation - creating items, walls of fire, creatures to help you, etc. EDestruction - standard RPG magic. Smash stuff, etc. EAlteration - transforming things; stat boosters/decreasers, healing, item modification ETelepathy - mind-affecting abilities, telekinesis, communication, teleportation Even though this seems overwhelming, most of this should go on behind the scenes. Characters will be able to set the level of management they want and the helper AI will handle the rest. Everything that is displayed should have a good in-game description. The PNP RPG freak can see every little number, while the casual gamer will just see that he/she isn't good at ether. What do you think of this approach to RPG's? Comments, please.

There are already many games that work in this way, and the system does to some extent work quite well. As an example I'll use the MMORPG game Ultima Online. In UO, every time you perform an action, there is a chance that the skills related to that action will be raised, and a smaller chance that the stats related to that action will be raised. There are no 'levels.' Ergo, performing actions more often (ie. practicing) raises your skill levels, as well as your stats. You can also be 'trained' up to a certain level of skill by NPC's. One of the major drawbacks this introduces is 'macroing,' where players will set up a macro to perform a certain action (or string of actions) repeatedly in order to raise skills, stats, or of course simply to raise money. Its quite tricky to build in any mechanisms to automatically detect such a thing, considering that if a player chooses to perform actions repeatedly without use of macroing its a perfectly valid form of gameplay for this type of game. This leaves it up to actual human GM's (Game Masters) to make sure this type of activity doesnt get out of hand and end up detracting from the game, but with the numbers of players seen in this type of game its obviously impractical to check on all of them constantly in such a way.

Also with such a system, you need to make sure skill-gain occurs at fairly similar rates for all skills, or that ones harder to raise are more effective equivalently to the increased difficulty, otherwise you will see an effect where almost all players will choose the 'optimal' skill path (ie. the easiest and/or most powerful).

Anyways, just a few small points to consider, I hope they're of some help to you.

Quote: Original post by nagromo
I, like too many other hobbyists, am trying to create an RPG.

What do you mean, too many? There can never be enough hobbyist RPGs! :) (Ermm.... unless it's a straight Tolkein rip without any variance...)

Quote:
Although I'm not making a MMORPG I believe that this still applies to me. I'm not going as far as he suggests as NPC's can't be that good (IMHO), but I want to get rid of old-fashioned levels.

Be careful to know what you're giving up. Levels offer short to mid-range goals that make you feel like something has substantially changed.

It's like pinball scores: Sure, they could add 1 or 2 points to your score, but the 1,000,000 points you get are psychologically more satisfying.

Quote:
Instead, characters gain experience by doing things.

Morrowind does this, and it works well except for the incentive to, as Kazgoroth, macro. Just having such a system can be tempting to abuse because it's there.

One solution might be to track actions only when different actions have been proceeded it. It doesn't solve the problem, but it'll stop the thing I did in Morrowind where I weighted down the stealth key on my second character because repetitive strain injury just wasn't fun gameplay.

IIRC, Morrowind tracks every successful hit, btw. I'd avoid that system, or at least give the player a place to practice, because with such a system in the beginning you miss alot and it's not very fun.

Quote: Original post by Wavinator
Be careful to know what you're giving up. Levels offer short to mid-range goals that make you feel like something has substantially changed.

Indeed, as I stated in the other thread, keeping players tuned to the game is important, and there were some articles (on gamasutra I think) stating out you need goals (like levels) to keep the player tuned.

For sure this can't be all to keep the player playing your game forever, but at least in the short and middle game (see Diablo for a great example on having many short-time goals).

I don't think different mechanics will bring any fun to play a game in the end (when you have reached the final level or maxed your skills). All this only keeps the player interested until they have maxed out the character, maybe keep them interested to create a new char. But in the end they will stop playing if you can't bring in new context to the game, either generated or manually edited (watch out to keep the automatic generated not to be monotone!!).

So all that can keep a player with your game is changing the world (hm... again Diablo is a nice example, but the random map generator is pretty limited...)

I used to play a MUD many years ago where there were no levels and no experience. You had a heirarchical skill set and gained skills by using them.

so, for example, after reaching level 5 in 'fighting' it would divide into 'edged' 'ranged' etc, and then once you reached a certain level in those it would divide again etc. etc.

It worked quite well.

You are all forgeting something...
It only matters a litle the skill system, it is the history (even in a MMORPG, where some of the history is made by the players and the admins) the important.
I can forgive a rpg with a lousy skill system, but if it has a bad history i'll throw it away.

Quote:
You are all forgeting something...
It only matters a litle the skill system, it is the history (even in a MMORPG, where some of the history is made by the players and the admins) the important.
I can forgive a rpg with a lousy skill system, but if it has a bad history i'll throw it away.

But thats content, if you look at the first post, this thread is about gameplay:

Quote:
I want to improve the genre's gameplay.

Presumably the OP doesnt want input on content, storyline or whatever - for all we know, they have the most detailed history and backstory ever seen in an RPG.