pacman,
Yeah, I know that you're right.
*slap!*
Ouch, dammit that hurt. Oh...you said slap it in the face
That's what I was concerned about, that we were making no progress. Answerless questions are great if people learn from them, but it seemed that we weren't...I'm probably not realizing our progress though.
"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft
"`Nazrix is cool.' --Nazrix" --Darkmage
Edited by - Nazrix on September 7, 2000 3:38:00 PM
So, what is a game then ?
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi
quote: Original post by Landfish
Sorry to be so cryptic, but...
What is a door?
A door leads you into another room. (what about doors that lead outside?)
A door is a piece of wood on hinges (isn''t that a cabinet?)
A door is a removable barrier. (Like a portcullis?)
Language is failing us BIG TIME. It always will. It''s an old zen concept that Language is merely a tool for illustrating thought, but Language can NEVER be as accurate as thoughts are. If I point my finger at the moon, my finger is NOT the moon, but it can show you where the moon is!
LF, no offense man, but this seems like a big-time cop-out more appropriate to deep philosophy or the politics of US President Bill Clinton. ("depends on what you mean by *is*")
Language (heh, like reality itself) is a matter of agreement. We''ve got a broad agreement of what a game is... say enough to know that it''s not being buried alive or giving birth or making a featherbed... So we''ve got a ballpark idea, and now I think we''re looking for refinement.
quote:
Games are games. I don''t even make games. I''d come up with another word for what I want to make, but I''d be a pretentions prick then, now wouldn''t I?
No, I really don''t think so. You''d be advancing another form of entertainment, or mental exploration via the computer, or simulation, or *gasp* art form. This would be cool, especially if you knew it wasn''t a game. Then you could name the thing and be able to talk about it within its named boundary.
I''m working on something right now that may not be a game. It looks like a science fiction RPG, with stats and characters and such. But there''s no story. There''s a lot of exploration, some capitalist mechanics, and plenty of conflict. What I''m making may be a game, it may be a toy, it may be a sim.... I dunno, but I think a refined definition would be useful and that we can do it with the tools (language) we have.
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
Oh, boy LOL give me a break. - sorry
''What is the matrix''
Reality is 9/10ths perception
So a game is what you choose it to be:
if you think its a mental exercise - good for you then thats what it is
if its an evolution of childrens game - then you just go make your super 3d cowboys vs indians
Personaly I have no trouble making games without knowing some super unified theory on the definition of them. They simply ''are'' because that''s all I personaly require of them.
If I make a game that I beleive is an improvement on past games, do I have to double check by comparing it to some golden rule of what a game is?
Well I dont, but feel free to do it for me
I think therefore I code.
''What is the matrix''
Reality is 9/10ths perception
So a game is what you choose it to be:
if you think its a mental exercise - good for you then thats what it is
if its an evolution of childrens game - then you just go make your super 3d cowboys vs indians
Personaly I have no trouble making games without knowing some super unified theory on the definition of them. They simply ''are'' because that''s all I personaly require of them.
If I make a game that I beleive is an improvement on past games, do I have to double check by comparing it to some golden rule of what a game is?
Well I dont, but feel free to do it for me
I think therefore I code.
Just because the church was wrong doesn't mean Galileo wasn't a heretic.It just means he was a heretic who was right.
quote: Original post by Wavinator
LF, no offense man, but this seems like a big-time cop-out more appropriate to deep philosophy or the politics of US President Bill Clinton. ("depends on what you mean by *is*")
Language (heh, like reality itself) is a matter of agreement. We''ve got a broad agreement of what a game is... say enough to know that it''s not being buried alive or giving birth or making a featherbed... So we''ve got a ballpark idea, and now I think we''re looking for refinement.
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
Yeah that''s kinda what I was trying to say. I mean, normally I like discussing such things, and I see ol'' LF''s point, but it''s just getting a little out of control.
"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft
"`Nazrix is cool.' --Nazrix" --Darkmage
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi
Check out the excellent work of Greg Costikyan for a good answer to this question. He breaks down the difference between games, sims, and toys, as well as other entertainment products. I think this is one of the better written articles on games out there.
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
LF : "the wise man points at the moon, and the fool looks at the finger". Yeah I know, I am being head breaking. So what ? you can jsut ignore all this and go on, and just do your stuff ... I am sure we can all do great games... but what do you call a game ? That''s exactly my point. If you want a debate, you need to use the proper words. If all our thinking is based on words we don''t agree on, where the hell are we going ?? Of course, we can stay each in our corner, and from our distorted analysis of other people words, create new things and be satisfied...
I just thought I would like to kick the antnest, and see what happens.
Nazrix : Yes, I am being over analytical, at the asylum, they said it''s because I am a scorpio
But more seriously, all I am doing here really, is what I hated so much about Philosophy : talk without answering. I am not trying to find the holy Grail, I am just seeing something wring with the way we are thinking.
You say, "I like when we were talking about things we can actually change about games", but are your really changing anything ??? And I don''t mean are you actually coding stuff, I am saying, are your thoughts really changing anything to games ?
The one thing I learnt from Philosophy, it''s that being aware is painful. Realising that there are problems, that there are things that need be changed. And I don''t just speak about games, I am talking in general. Now, if you really want to change things, you have to ask answerless questions. Otherwise all you are doing is upgrading. Not creating.
All the games you see are just "upgrades" of the games we play as children.
I am trying to find some exceptions, but so far I keep thinking they are all essentially child plays we recreated on a computer.
We play games because they reward us with pleasure, what you call "fun". But why ?
I know I am jsut talking bullshit for you. but I''d like to know : why did I invest several thousands of francs (french money) over the last 10 years or something, to play games I could play if I stop five minutes and sit down with my wee sister ?
I don''t need a computer to play RPG, nor a group of friends and a GM, I barely need anyone else, I just have to act, play a role, and that''s it, that''s a role playing game.
My sister can spend days playing as a cook, as a mum doing ironing, or washing the house, or as a clerk in a bank agency.
A kid just need to think about it, and he''s playing the most fabulous game ever.
So what are we doing ? Is it worth it ?
Maybe we could improve the games by making them more "intellectual", more artsy fartsy, but then, wouldn''t we be losing the essence of games ?
Ah well, too many questions, and all I see is the pointlessness of it all
Good night !
oh bye the way, if you can think of any game that can not be related to a kid game, I''d like to hear about it !
youpla :-P
------
At least, I am sure of one thing, there is no certainty in this life.
I just thought I would like to kick the antnest, and see what happens.
Nazrix : Yes, I am being over analytical, at the asylum, they said it''s because I am a scorpio
But more seriously, all I am doing here really, is what I hated so much about Philosophy : talk without answering. I am not trying to find the holy Grail, I am just seeing something wring with the way we are thinking.
You say, "I like when we were talking about things we can actually change about games", but are your really changing anything ??? And I don''t mean are you actually coding stuff, I am saying, are your thoughts really changing anything to games ?
The one thing I learnt from Philosophy, it''s that being aware is painful. Realising that there are problems, that there are things that need be changed. And I don''t just speak about games, I am talking in general. Now, if you really want to change things, you have to ask answerless questions. Otherwise all you are doing is upgrading. Not creating.
All the games you see are just "upgrades" of the games we play as children.
I am trying to find some exceptions, but so far I keep thinking they are all essentially child plays we recreated on a computer.
We play games because they reward us with pleasure, what you call "fun". But why ?
I know I am jsut talking bullshit for you. but I''d like to know : why did I invest several thousands of francs (french money) over the last 10 years or something, to play games I could play if I stop five minutes and sit down with my wee sister ?
I don''t need a computer to play RPG, nor a group of friends and a GM, I barely need anyone else, I just have to act, play a role, and that''s it, that''s a role playing game.
My sister can spend days playing as a cook, as a mum doing ironing, or washing the house, or as a clerk in a bank agency.
A kid just need to think about it, and he''s playing the most fabulous game ever.
So what are we doing ? Is it worth it ?
Maybe we could improve the games by making them more "intellectual", more artsy fartsy, but then, wouldn''t we be losing the essence of games ?
Ah well, too many questions, and all I see is the pointlessness of it all
Good night !
oh bye the way, if you can think of any game that can not be related to a kid game, I''d like to hear about it !
youpla :-P
------
At least, I am sure of one thing, there is no certainty in this life.
-----------------------------Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !
This is very interesting. I''m glad you made this thread ahw.
It''s not our duty to reinvent the wheel. If every game we made we decided to take this task on then there would be very little games to play. And what there would be wouldn''t neccessarily be any good. If game designers didn''t upgrade game elements and took the task of reinventing the wheel every time we wouldn''t have games like half-life, fallout, diablo, and we''d still be playing the original simcity.
Just to answer you''re last question with a question of my own... How do you classify a kids game. We say a kid stops being a kid at 10 or so, but the human brain doesn''t just change over night. The human brain changes gradually. I believe that if we were once kids then we are always kids. The childish nature will always be with us because the childish nature never existed. Its real name is human nature.
As i understand a game is natures teacher. This has been proven scientifically and i believe it. The real question here is for me is is "What kind of fun comes from games?" If there are "Different Types" of fun do we call the fun the comes from games learning fun?
I deffinity got to read up on animal learning. I think its done by palentologists isn''t it? Some of the case examples are brilliant.
I love Game Design and it loves me back.
Our Goal is "Fun"!
It''s not our duty to reinvent the wheel. If every game we made we decided to take this task on then there would be very little games to play. And what there would be wouldn''t neccessarily be any good. If game designers didn''t upgrade game elements and took the task of reinventing the wheel every time we wouldn''t have games like half-life, fallout, diablo, and we''d still be playing the original simcity.
Just to answer you''re last question with a question of my own... How do you classify a kids game. We say a kid stops being a kid at 10 or so, but the human brain doesn''t just change over night. The human brain changes gradually. I believe that if we were once kids then we are always kids. The childish nature will always be with us because the childish nature never existed. Its real name is human nature.
As i understand a game is natures teacher. This has been proven scientifically and i believe it. The real question here is for me is is "What kind of fun comes from games?" If there are "Different Types" of fun do we call the fun the comes from games learning fun?
I deffinity got to read up on animal learning. I think its done by palentologists isn''t it? Some of the case examples are brilliant.
I love Game Design and it loves me back.
Our Goal is "Fun"!
A kid changes being a kid at 10. d''uh !
I think (no offense) this is utter bullsh!t. The fact is, you only stop playing because of your environment, because of the opinion of the peers. There are 21 years old guys that go out with 16 years old girls, because that''s the age they are in their head, and there are 10 years old kids that spend there time talking with 16 years old (me...)
Fact is, we would never stop playing if we could, because just like sex, it''s a pleasurable activity, one that for some strange reason, Nature decided to reward with endomorphine (well, at least for sex, it''s a fact).
As for reinventing the wheel, I must say that''s exactly the question I am asking. Are we creating better games by putting them on a computer, by adding 3D graphics, 3D sound, an involving storyline... things that we automatically create in our brains when we are kids ! What I am wondering is, whatkid game haven''t we recreated yet ? I won''t talk about RPG, because our only limit so far is purely technological, and maybe because of the totally biased way programmers see RPG (AD&D ...). But look at FPS, they are damn recent, and yet, what do they recreate ? All the hunting games kids play. Same for the RTS, if they are so succesfull, you can bet it''s because they are a simple re-creation of sandbox battles of little plastic soldiers, and jsut like in your younger days, the main tactic is to grab some soldiers, declare them "super death soldiers!" and samck them at your opponents base ... ahem...
Now one thing I am noticing, and that might be a hint to why we have so few women players, is the lack of girl games ... I would question the interest of a housewife simulator, but fact is, most little girls I know would die for that
As well, you might notice that as adults, it''s usually really hard to say "yeah, I am playing with my kids toys", but rather it would be something "oh dear, we *have* to buy these toys, the kid''s gonna love them" ... yeah, right
Something I observed as well : when I was 9 years old, I discovered in a book of Geometry, a little game of Formula 1, based on simple geometric rules. I learnt, taught it to the rest of the class, and soon every guy in my class was playing. I taught this game to most of my fellow classmates almost every year (I changed school quite a number of times in the following years). And every time, the thrill and excitement of my classmates was the same than when I first played it with 10 years old kids. 12 years later, while doing my Degree in Computing, I would sit down at the back of the classroom, and play relentlessly with three other fellows ... OMG, just like little kids. The game was played on a grided piece of paper, with a pencil for every player, that''s it.
My point ? The mechanics of the game were all it needed to provide pleasure (fun). At the same period, with the same persons, we would play hours of Quake and have the same fun (actually even more).
Another little thing I am thinking about, whatever fancy graphics, excellent sounds, etc, I noticed that most kids would compensate the features they saw as missing by simply imagining them, and this of course work with adults, and is clearly illustrated by the success of Roguelike games.
I am actually thinking that the success of Diablo is quite obvious, once you see it from my point of view : it''s simply a nice action figure game.
"Behold!! This is Zoltharan the Mighty Barbarian, with his mighty two handed sword Deathbringer, his Helmet of Death protects him from your attacks, now prepare to die !"
click click click *epic action scene*
"Nooo, you can''t kill me, I am Morganna the GReat Enchantress, and with my Golden Amulet of Metamorphosis I turn you into a mere toad !"
click click click...
d''uh ! Does it sound very different from the games you would play between your GI Joe guys and the Barbie of your sister ? ... I didn''t think so
So my question, what kid games didn''t we recreate so far ? And what does the addition of more than gameplay bring to the experience ? By bringing in a plot, don''t we limit the imagination of the player ? By limiting his ability to create stories, aren''t we defeating the purpose of the game ?
questions, questions ...
anyone got an answer ?
youpla :-P
I think (no offense) this is utter bullsh!t. The fact is, you only stop playing because of your environment, because of the opinion of the peers. There are 21 years old guys that go out with 16 years old girls, because that''s the age they are in their head, and there are 10 years old kids that spend there time talking with 16 years old (me...)
Fact is, we would never stop playing if we could, because just like sex, it''s a pleasurable activity, one that for some strange reason, Nature decided to reward with endomorphine (well, at least for sex, it''s a fact).
As for reinventing the wheel, I must say that''s exactly the question I am asking. Are we creating better games by putting them on a computer, by adding 3D graphics, 3D sound, an involving storyline... things that we automatically create in our brains when we are kids ! What I am wondering is, whatkid game haven''t we recreated yet ? I won''t talk about RPG, because our only limit so far is purely technological, and maybe because of the totally biased way programmers see RPG (AD&D ...). But look at FPS, they are damn recent, and yet, what do they recreate ? All the hunting games kids play. Same for the RTS, if they are so succesfull, you can bet it''s because they are a simple re-creation of sandbox battles of little plastic soldiers, and jsut like in your younger days, the main tactic is to grab some soldiers, declare them "super death soldiers!" and samck them at your opponents base ... ahem...
Now one thing I am noticing, and that might be a hint to why we have so few women players, is the lack of girl games ... I would question the interest of a housewife simulator, but fact is, most little girls I know would die for that
As well, you might notice that as adults, it''s usually really hard to say "yeah, I am playing with my kids toys", but rather it would be something "oh dear, we *have* to buy these toys, the kid''s gonna love them" ... yeah, right
Something I observed as well : when I was 9 years old, I discovered in a book of Geometry, a little game of Formula 1, based on simple geometric rules. I learnt, taught it to the rest of the class, and soon every guy in my class was playing. I taught this game to most of my fellow classmates almost every year (I changed school quite a number of times in the following years). And every time, the thrill and excitement of my classmates was the same than when I first played it with 10 years old kids. 12 years later, while doing my Degree in Computing, I would sit down at the back of the classroom, and play relentlessly with three other fellows ... OMG, just like little kids. The game was played on a grided piece of paper, with a pencil for every player, that''s it.
My point ? The mechanics of the game were all it needed to provide pleasure (fun). At the same period, with the same persons, we would play hours of Quake and have the same fun (actually even more).
Another little thing I am thinking about, whatever fancy graphics, excellent sounds, etc, I noticed that most kids would compensate the features they saw as missing by simply imagining them, and this of course work with adults, and is clearly illustrated by the success of Roguelike games.
I am actually thinking that the success of Diablo is quite obvious, once you see it from my point of view : it''s simply a nice action figure game.
"Behold!! This is Zoltharan the Mighty Barbarian, with his mighty two handed sword Deathbringer, his Helmet of Death protects him from your attacks, now prepare to die !"
click click click *epic action scene*
"Nooo, you can''t kill me, I am Morganna the GReat Enchantress, and with my Golden Amulet of Metamorphosis I turn you into a mere toad !"
click click click...
d''uh ! Does it sound very different from the games you would play between your GI Joe guys and the Barbie of your sister ? ... I didn''t think so
So my question, what kid games didn''t we recreate so far ? And what does the addition of more than gameplay bring to the experience ? By bringing in a plot, don''t we limit the imagination of the player ? By limiting his ability to create stories, aren''t we defeating the purpose of the game ?
questions, questions ...
anyone got an answer ?
youpla :-P
-----------------------------Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !
quote: Original post by ahw
There are 21 years old guys that go out with 16 years old girls, because that''s the age they are in their head, and there are 10 years old kids that spend there time talking with 16 years old (me...)
I resent that...
[ necessary information: I''m 23, my girlfriend''s 16]
Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.
It's only funny 'till someone gets hurt.And then it's just hilarious.Unless it's you.
My father was 23 when he *married* my mother, who was 17...
no offense intended
My point was simply that the age doesn't really mean who you are that much. Your GF could be ahead of her age, or you could be behind yours ... or both are in between
Edited by - ahw on September 8, 2000 3:16:00 PM
no offense intended
My point was simply that the age doesn't really mean who you are that much. Your GF could be ahead of her age, or you could be behind yours ... or both are in between
Edited by - ahw on September 8, 2000 3:16:00 PM
-----------------------------Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !
This topic is closed to new replies.
Advertisement
Popular Topics
Advertisement