quote: Original post by Wavinator

Imagine having a designer who comes back to you and says, "Let''s use combinatorics to get more content in our dialog trees. I know how to do this..." I''d fall over dead for someone like this.

*heh*

That''s pretty funny. (this is the first time I''ve seen this topic) You say this, then three days later, I post that message over in the Star Wars/Star Trek CRPG forum. Seriously, tho'', I''m working on a system like this for a game I have in the works, so if I can at least get a mock-up going, I''ll send it your way. Ditto for the random encounter tables. Oh, just to warn you, I work better in VB than C++, or whatever you use, (hey, gimme a break, I''m a first year CS student... ...) so you''ll probably have to convert the source over to whatever you''re doing.


If you see the Buddha on the road, Kill Him. -apocryphal

Oh, and BTW-

Not to brag, but I am a fairly established writer. Yet rather than rush headlong into game development, (they can''t be that different can they? *thhhbt*) I am taking the time to go through four years of programming and computer science so that:
a)I can serve a dual role on the kind of small teams I''ll probably be working for
b)I can do my part in making the kind of plot- and sub-plot-filled games I would like to see in the industry
c)Calling yourself a "Game Writer" is really limiting, both from a creative point of view, and espescially from a career point of view. People are only hired for their ideas *after* they''ve already proven themselves in the field.

The initial reason I wanted to make games was to involve the player more deeply in a linear plotline. It is actually more moving for me to play through a linear plot than to simply read it or watch it on screen, even if the gameplay is total shite. So if I can make a game that is fun to play, with a deep, rich linear plot, it is to me better than simply writing a book. I see nothing wrong w/ this. Just because its a game and games are supposed to be interactive doesn''t mean everything in your game has to respond to the player''s input. Games can also be seen as yet another medium to communicate an idea.

So, in conclusion, yes we need better writers, and no, I would not hire a dedicated writer for my team, even if I had the opportunity (which I don''t). I would expect a writer to bring other talents + a real understanding of video games to the table.




If you see the Buddha on the road, Kill Him. -apocryphal

hey ! we could move that thread to the Game writing forum ?

AP, Exactly my point.

We need people that have multiple talents, they must be able to do a little writing, do a little designing and do a little programming and then excel in one of these fields.

* Programmers that can only program but know nothing about whats fun or what should be in a game is useless.

* Designers that know what they want, but that doesn''t know what a computer can do or how to incorporate a story is useless.

* Writers that does know a little about programming or what makes a game fun and interactive is useless.

The same goes for artists, musicians, voice actors, producers, marketing people and so on.

This goes in all industries, to work efficiently, we must understand each other''s work and each others limitations. Only then will real quality come out of it all.

Jacob Marner
(The guy that knows a little about it all - but mostly programming and then some design)

ahw,
too late, it started here before that forum existed.
I am sure many more threads like this will appear in the future. You must give things like this time to migrate in a "natural" way.

Jacob Marner

quote: Original post by BigBrother

The writer is the one who says how the NPC looks like, how does he behave, his connection to the player character, NPC background etc

No he isn''t. You can let the computer decide these things for you based on its evaluation of how the player is experiencing the game until then. There is NOTHING that says these things have to be defined beforehand.
My guess is you''ve never run a system-less roleplaying game, and never programmed - there''s a lot more possible than you think.




Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.

On the subject of cramming prose into a game:

I can''t speak for the other people who posted a story in the writing samples thread, but my little opus was designed to be an intro to a game.

I agree that prose doesn''t allow for much interactivity. However, it works great for background stories, cut scenes and the like.

Writers in games are needed for:

Background story
Almost every type of game has some kind of background story. Puzzles mostly don't, but even if shooters don't need one, they usually have. Should we hire a writer for writing the background story of a shooter? No, not really, unless the story is an integral part of the game, eg. Deus Ex, System Shock, though it is arguable if these are shooters or RPGs (FPRPS = First-person role-playing shooter?). The writer doesn't have to know anything about game design to write a background story. See the next paragraph.

Story itself
In some games, the game itself has a story, especially adventure and role playing games. In this case, a good writer is critical, because the story is part of the game play. The whole story, without thinking about the game, is really prose. Most adventure and role playing games' stories could be published as books (some have, eg. Gabriel Knight 1 & 2). Again, writer doesn't have to be a designer to write a story, because it resembles a book.

Dialog
This is where the writer also becomes a designer, unless the dialog is linear (no player influence) or the structure has already been designed before writing.

Interactive story?
Multiple branches, perhaps random elements, the story is influenced by game play. The writer can't just write a normal story, he/she has to be a good designer, too. I don't think there even have been really interactive stories. Deus Ex had some variation based on what you did, but the main plot was always the same until the end, where there were three different endings.

Perhaps some really intelligent AI and a SGML-type "story describing language" could be made in the future? You just write the general story, like in a book, while the AI fills in the details based on what happens in the game. I know this is dreaming, but I'm sure it will be possible some day.

I know this post seemed hollow, but it's just something I had thought of.

-Jussi

Edited by - Selkrank on September 11, 2000 3:46:57 AM

Selkrank :
about Dialog. I would like to go further on that point. Basically, I think you jsut shouldn''t make any sort of dialog without someone who has some experience of it. I mean, if you think about it, dialogs in game are used to convey information to the player. So that''s fine, and that''s what you *need*. But do I really want all the inhabitants in a village to talk with the same voice, same style, same accent, same register of language (slang, posh, etc) ? No, I''d like some variety.
As well, after 2 years of barcrawling in Ireland (and another one starting soon), I have learnt that you can make yourself a pretty good idea of someone in a few minutes of chit chat. Besides a name, people have activities, likes and dislikes, come from somewhere, etc.
As they say, it takes a pint to tell the whole life story of someone .
Now you would say it''s useless, we don''t need that to make a better *game*. True, but you need that to create an atmosphere. A good writer does that, he describes in details a location you''ll never see again, or a character you''ll meet jsut this once and that will die in a few minutes, for the sake of establishing an atmosphere ...

If I see another story plot written by a programmer I am gonna puke.
Oh and tell me, how is it that we/you nerds/geeks seem to read so much sci fi / med fan, but nothing else ??? What''s so different between reading a good story in the Middle Earth and in Real Life ??? And what''s so frightening about "established" litteracy ? I mean, I *adore* Henri V, and yet, you can''t do more classical than that...

(I''d love you guys to answer this one on the other thread in the game Writing sections, as I am already asking about dialogs there ...)

youpla :-P

quote: Original post by ahw

But do I really want all the inhabitants in a village to talk with the same voice, same style, same accent, same register of language (slang, posh, etc) ? No, I''d like some variety.

Why wouldn''t there be variety if the writer doesn''t design the dialog structure, but only writes the dialog itself? What''s your point?

-Jussi