Cut the attitude, Wavinator, you''ll note I never once said anything about the intelligence of the mass-public.

quote: Original post by jenova

actually the world is not stupid. everyone in the world is capable of ingenius. and i don''t mean that everyone is capable of being the next John Carmack, but everyone can be great at their on particular field.

Jenova, couldn''t agree more.

We''re all brilliant and stupid in our own ways. If we have any real failing, it is ranking one another by something so trivial.

quote:
people have just been trained to not use their minds: to be lazy, and let the system think for them. is this a problem, well that just depends on what side your looking from

You know, I think this is more an effect of complexity and specialization than anything else. Which is better, fast or slow breeder reactors? Genetically or chemically manufactured tryptophan? Stocks or mutuals? White lies or the total truth? Strong morals fiber or tender loving care?

I think we have the capacity to understand a lot more than our system requires of us, but we don''t as a matter of efficiency. This has it''s benefits and it''s consequences.




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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by Landfish

Cut the attitude, Wavinator, you''ll note I never once said anything about the intelligence of the mass-public.

I''m just trying to start a flamewar... I figured you were bored...

Seriously, no attitude. We both have strong opinions obviously, and express them with the same energy. So don''t take offense. I''m actually learning something and having fun.

BTW, if the stupidity part doesn''t fit I retract it. I''ve just met so many people that automatically assume that because their tastes do not run mainstream the mainstream is somehow beneath them. I myself had this attitude, which is why I relate, but I now know it to be incorrect (and hence my line to you below the "stupidity" remark)

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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by Landfish

Cut the attitude, Wavinator, you''ll note I never once said anything about the intelligence of the mass-public.

Yeah that was I who said they were stupid.
I was joking really. I suppose that you have a point Wavinator though. We''re not going to change what most of the public likes, so we''ve no right to bitch about them.




"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft

"Nazrix is cool." --Nazrix first, then Darkmage

quote: Original post by Wavinator

W A R N I N G!!!! Elitism detected!!! W A R N I N G!!!!

So longevity == quality??? That's pretty narrow...

He wasn't saying that just because something's old it makes it good, but that most things that aren't "mainstream" aren't discovered til much later. Futhermore, just because something's "mainstream" it doesn't make it lacking of integrity although it seems that much of it does.

Wav, you are obviously intelligent enough to know that's what he meant. I don't mean to sound like a bastard, but it sounds to me that you are arguing for argument's sake. That's different than the devil's advocate. The devil's advocate makes a well-developed contrary argument to a topic to argue a different side even if he/she doesn't necessarily believe that side, not contorting someone's statement to pose an alternate view.


"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft

"Nazrix is cool." --Nazrix first, then Darkmage


Edited by - Nazrix on September 6, 2000 8:17:11 PM

I used to think there was some value to everybody. That they could each contribute in some way.

But now I''m older and more cynical. After working in corporate hell for a few years I am convinced that there are some people who either can''t or won''t add to the common existence. A whole chunk of stupid and useless people.

But none of that has to do with why I design (games). I design because that is who I am. I think of things in terms of systems and elements. Sit around and talk politics and I''ll be constructing a vision of game mechanics called ''Get the electoral vote''. I vomit forth notebooks of systems designed to model human behavior, particle physics, economics, magic, you name it.

Games are a convenient medium to evolve these ideas and see them play out. You can sometimes draw interesting conclusions from the models, but mostly they''re just abstract systems. If you derive enjoyment out of them too, then that''s just gravy. If I can earn a living doing it, that''s bonus gravy.

Wavinator,

The problem with doing what people want is that you can only really do what you think people want, which is based on what others say people want. There are so many people out there that there''s no immediate connection between you and all those people. There are so many preferences that, frankly, I''d rather do what I want... perhaps with a certain degree of empathy.

Very good point, chronos. I suppose the corporate world would say that you know what people want by judging the amout of sales from a certain genre of game.

I perfer your take on it though, chronos. Just do what you want, and a little compromise and empathy can be included.



"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft

"Nazrix is cool." --Nazrix first, then Darkmage

quote: Original post by chronos

Wavinator,

The problem with doing what people want is that you can only really do what you think people want, which is based on what others say people want. There are so many people out there that there''s no immediate connection between you and all those people. There are so many preferences that, frankly, I''d rather do what I want... perhaps with a certain degree of empathy.

Maybe this is the soul of the point right here. I won''t do deerhunter, no matter how many people want it. This wasn''t what I was suggesting.

What I''m talking about is getting into the shoes of the people you want to make the game for. When you say empathy, we probably mean the same thing.

When I make my game, I have part of an eye out for what I want. I want an RPG. I want an open ended game. I want it to be science fiction. Whenever I add something I''m testing it against my friends, newsgroup responses, this board, the folks I want to target... the hardcore market.

So, if my audience wants saves, I''ll give them saves. If my audience doesn''t want time limits, I''m a fool to impose them. This to me isn''t pandering, it''s what I call the joy of making something for other people.



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Just waiting for the mothership...

Hmmm... You could just pretend to do what people want, get them into a rythm and then shock them. I always prefer shock tactics to really get people emotional in a game

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