Well, it looks like a lot more people have an opinion about this now.

Landfish, I''m not a big art person. By this, I mean in my art class last semester, I looked forward to gallery vists only because I got to go home 2 hours early. I love books, music, even some movies, I''m just not into "art".

Wavy (), I don''t think Landfish was trying to say that a game isn''t good unless it has good writing (are you?). I agree that game design should never be second to artistic expression: without the rock solid desgin, the game is going to suck no matter what. But I also think that, as a creative field, people should be encouraged to put a little bit of themselves into the games they make.

Immagnuman: "That being said, if I wanted a story I''d read a book."

That''s a load of crap. Would your favorite RPG be what it is without it''s story? Whoever thinks that books are the place to be for story, think again. Games have the potential to tell the best stories ever, they just haven''t yet.

Selkrank: "He suggested that we should concentrate on the ''game'' part of games, and not sacrifice playability for a good story."

This guy is full of crap too (man, I''m angry this morning ). Story and games are NOT mutually exclusive, and a story does not have to be linear going into it. A story is always linear AFTER the fact, but just like life, there are so many possibilities, and a story is just a collection of what ended up happening. An example that proves my point: Chrono Trigger. You think because of it''s story, it lacked gameplay?

ahw, I agree that the best game you can possibly make is when you say "go to hell" to everyone else, and make what you want. That is the way it''s supposed to be.

Keith, one question: how much better would Diablo have been if it had had a good story and more role playing?

A similar question to Daemin: if Quake of Doom had a great plot, would you have played through the levels just to kill, or find out what happens next?

This has got to be my longest post ever . That''s all I can think of now, so I eagerly await anyones reply.

-------------------------------------------
"What's the story with your face, son?!?"

I think Diablo, Quake, and Doom would all benefit from more story. It would just add to what's already there. I thought Thief had much more depth because of that little bit more of a story.

Furthermore, if someone made a game where artistic expression overwhelmed the gameplay, I think there's nothing at all wrong w/ that. I have seen movies where it was obvious there was a profound message and that message had priority over the plot itself.

If someone were to make such a game, they'd have to just realize that's what it would be: a game where the artisic message was the priority. The game probably would not be commercially popular because people wouldn't be used to such a thing, but I see nothing wrong w/ it.







"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft

"`Nazrix is cool.' --Nazrix" --Darkmage

Edited by - Nazrix on September 7, 2000 2:41:27 PM

g

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

You know, this would have to be the most pathetic thread i''ve ever read!!!

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

Yeah, I think we''ve rode this topic out as far as we''re going to. It''s getting rather rediculous.




"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft

"`Nazrix is cool.' --Nazrix" --Darkmage

Why do people keep on misquoting me?! Et tu, Madkeith!

My philosophy is NOT that Story, or writing is central to a game''s being art. This is a misunderstanding stemming from two different conversations happening at the same time, one about writing and one about art. Just for clarification, here is what I believe, and always have.

The Experience of Playing a game is what is central to the design. All parts contribute to this equally. (in quality, not quantity). There are games with bad design and bad gameplay that are saved by their (supposed) great story. Final Fantasy VII (I don''t get it, but some people do...)

There are games with horrible story that some people like for their excellent gameplay. I have never denied this.

To make Der Ubergame, we must look at all parts as pieces of the EXPERIENCE. Gameplay is prominant on this list, simply because it is the most obvious part of the experience.

What I said way back then was true. We need better writers to make games better.

Immagnuman: "That being said, if I wanted a story I''d read a book."

That''s a load of crap. Would your favorite RPG be what it is without it''s story? Whoever thinks that books are the place to be for story, think again. Games have the potential to tell the best stories ever, they just haven''t yet.


You totally took that out of context. By story I meant that I dont wanna have to read a novel to start playing a game. I want the story to be developed in-game, through actions, not 100 pages of text. In fact I have stated(perhaps in other threads) that some of the best games I have played with stories are very good, but a story isn''t essential and a good game doesn''t nessicarily have a story and a good story doesn''t nessicarily make a game great.

-----------------------------

A wise man once said "A person with half a clue is more dangerous than a person with or without one."

Well, in that case, I apologize. No one wants to have to read a novel before they play a game, they didn''t buy a book, they bought a game. I also agree that a good game doesn''t need a story, nor does a good story make a good game.

My point is that a good game with a good, well integrated (not 100 pages of text before the game starts) story can transform a game into something better, deeper, and more meaningful. Even FPS can benifit from story (Theif).

*GASP* Oh man, I just realized that Landfish and I agree!

-------------------------------------------
"What's the story with your face, son?!?"

Don''t you think that if we had easier to use (less technical), more affordable tools for game development, a team of five guys could put out a unified vision that would really rock your socks? Until that happens, we''re stuck w/ either "amateurish" games, or corporate games. Either way, we''re screwed. . .what movie was that, 8mm? that says something like "You don''t change the devil, the devil changes you." Well, that pretty much sums up how I feel about being an artist (note, not a cappucino-sipping artsy-fartsy high artiste, I said *artist*) in corporate America.

If you see the Buddha on the road, Kill Him. -apocryphal

quote: Original post by pacman
Selkrank: "He suggested that we should concentrate on the ''game'' part of games, and not sacrifice playability for a good story."

This guy is full of crap too (man, I''m angry this morning ). Story and games are NOT mutually exclusive, and a story does not have to be linear going into it. A story is always linear AFTER the fact, but just like life, there are so many possibilities, and a story is just a collection of what ended up happening. An example that proves my point: Chrono Trigger. You think because of it''s story, it lacked gameplay?

"Sacrifice" is the important word there. If you can make a good story without sacrificing gameplay, it''s perfectly OK. I don''t say we shouldn''t concentrate on the story, but gameplay is more important, because that''s what games are all about. See the thread What makes you play?.

-Jussi