(Madkeith: This is very abrasive, but very relevant. Your call, man.) Current Game writing sucks. It sucks big *&%$. Here we are, birth of a new medium, a powerful new medium. Could blossom into something profoundly incredible for the human race, and we get lines like: "Evil Beware!" There are two problems with the writing in the current game industry. One for independant, smaller game developers, and one for the big names. We''ll start with the big names. It''s the same thing as Hollywood, only worse. A bunch of rich guys think they know what video games should be like, and so they have completely squelched out any progress. And what do they think video games should be like? Hollywood movies. Gore, breasts, and a dash of plot thrown in to tie it all together. In order of importance. The there''s the small fish. Little companies, only a few guys. The issue here is, either the coder or the artist thinks he can write because he ran a campagn of D&D for a year back in high school. Or, worse yet, they have a pretentious dweeb of a "designer" or "writer", some kid who thinks he can write. Truth is, this kid couldn''t write a good short story, much less a freaking video game (which is, despite common belief, way harder than writing anything else.) This kid throws together some cliches, and a plot about collecting four magic doo dads to save the world, and a cardboard cut out of a main character. Don''t think I''m not taliing about you. Don''t think I am not talking about myself. We need to wise up. I don''t know shit about writing. I''ve read a lot of books. I''ve read a lot of books on writing. But all of us are ignoring the real potential here, the birth of a new medium, the most powerful literary techniques known to man, here, as yet undiscovered, by us, because we don''t seem to care, we''d rather write something that played like freaking D&D! The best thing we can do, is start treating the game medium as an artistic medium. When we set out to write a game, we need to hold oursleves to the same standards as any other medium.Read that last sentence again. This does not mean making movie-like games or book-like games! It means making our games AS GOOD as the stuff the pros make in the other genres. That''s what pisses me off about all of the losers in this forum (finish the sentence before you assume that''s you) who criticize the thinking we do. y''know, the ones who think games are just fine as they are now? Those people might as well go back in time and destroy the first written words, as far as I''m concerned. They''re holding the rest of us back! Lowering our standards. They''re sayign "Diablo II is good enough... we don''t need to do better..." We need to do way better! Games are such a fledgling medium, we haven''t had a Citizen Kane, or a Godfather, or even a Star Wars! We just suck, we''re way behind, and we have nobody but ourselves and the industry we make up to blame! The people who maintain that the industry doesn''t need dedicated writers can rot in hell. There is nothing we need more. We sure as hell don''t need better faster graphics engines. I don''t care about graphics anymore, they''re gonna get better no matter what happens. but the writing sure isn''t. I hate selfish people. I hate hasbro. I hate microsoft. I hate people who think game writing is fine as it is, what the programmer writes in between code, to give the player some direction. It makes me want to punch my computer. I hate f*cking Geoff Howland, who when I (as a total newbie) inquired about a Writing Section, implied to me that there would be no purpose of such a thing. Who downplayed the role of a writer, because he, like myself, is a designer with a massive ego. The bastard saw it as a threat to his creative control over a story. Well wise us, Mr. George Lucas, when you write the story yourself, it SUCKS! Let the people who know what they''re doin have a shot! PART TWO. To the writers... I know where you are coming from. You see the problem, you think you can fix it. Or you just want to try your hand at writing for a game. PLEASE GOD, just go out, and become a good writer first. Lord knows we need some, in this freaking industry. It''ll be the hardest thing you''ll ever do. Normal writer''s will shun you for being a game wirter, because from atop their high horses they see games as a toy. The game industry will shun you because it feels it doesn''t need you. And just becoming a writer is hard enough! But please, know this. A good writer always thinks he can be better. Learn something about literary technique, about symbolism about why amnesiac main characters blow goats. Please accept that you CAN learn a lot from the other media, film, theatre, literature. Don''t be a prick like the rest of the industry... If anyone made it this far, feel free to flame away. I''m feeling confrontational today. ====== "The unexamined life is not worth living." -Socrates "Question everything. Especially Landfish." -Matt

That''s an interesting perspective, Landfish. I myself have been kind of assuming that the people on the forum are in the moderately competent to good range, based on what I''ve seen in the "writing samples" thread and what I see on the "What''s your favorite book?" threads. Certainly we all have more to learn about writing, and probably will keep learning for the rest of our lives. The question as I see it is whether we want to use this forum as a place to actively teach each other about writing, and whether that will sustain itself for more than a few thread-lifetimes. I think it would be an interesting thing to try, and I''m willing to write some lecture-style articles/posts. So, what do you (or anyone else) think that game writers need to be learning? Do we want to go at this one area at a time, or do we want to formulate some kind of outline of writing knowledge and then try to fill it in?

(My credentials for volunteering, btw, are that I''m currently majoring in English, and as such kind of swimming in resources about writing and reasons to think and write about how writing works. I also want to practice helping writers improve, because my intended career is "editor of science fiction novels", and I could use the experience.)

Ok, I am a programmer. I love making engines, I love having fantasies about all the stories I could write, but to be frank my stories suck and I am not a good writer.

So what do I do?

I go by the old saying (I don''t know it in english) "only do what you good at. Let others do the rest." and don''t write the stories myself, I outsource it. There is so much creative potential out there that programmer''s are wasting their time even trying to compete. The hard part though is finding the good ones.

So no Landfish, I will not flame you. You are right.

Jacob Marner

This has been chewing at you for eon''s, i can tell. It suprises me that Geoff Howland has writen so much stuff here in the Gamedev resourses section on game design but you never see him here making threads where his points of view can be argued. I''d like to see that. But on the other hand he is a contributer which i respect for what it''s worth. Maybe you should contribute something Landfish so people can flame your name as well when you''re not looking?

quote:
The best thing we can do, is start treating the game medium as an artistic medium. When we set out to write a game, we need to hold oursleves to the same standards as any other medium.

I think of it as a creative meduim. The problem at the moment is the amount of money that can be made in computer games is catching the eye of a lot a cold blooded business types who probably couldn''t give a sh*t about the industries creative potential only its cash value. Its just a pity more creative people don''t recognise the skills associated with running a business and making money becasue this is important.

quote:
But please, know this. A good writer always thinks he can be better. Learn something about literary technique, about symbolism about why amnesiac main characters blow goats. Please accept that you CAN learn a lot from the other media, film, theatre, literature. Don''t be a prick like the rest of the industry...

I just deleted about a 100 word paragraph because i think this is more appropriate:- What you''re saying is all and well but i think what you''re ranting on about here all comes down to respect. If you want respect you must prove your responsibility. Because repsonsiblity brings respect. Otherwise you''re just a grunt and will always be one.



I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

A-friggen-men.

Now that post illustrates that abrasive != offtopic.

Let me add a little more abrasion:
What about Warren Spector then uh. "I''m working with John Romero, I must be god reincarnate as a game designer annex writer."

What about myself? "Hey I''m doing a PhD in Comp. Science, I sure as heck should be a great game writer!"


Pfft, BUGGER IT ALL! The cameraman in a movie does not do the story.

Part 1 of what Goblin will be for.
Separate the story from the technicalities.

Part 2 of what Goblin will be for.
Separate the characters from the story.

Part 3 of what Goblin will be for.
Separate the coders from the writers..


Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.

Just a random comment: Fiction writers are probably even worse about creative control than designers. The designers are at least used to seeing their designs mangled by the programmers, artists, whoever. Writers are used to being solitary gods of their little fictional universes, at least until the editor gets their hands on the manuscript.

I don''t know where I was going with this. In general I think it would be cool if games could be as well-written as (good) books, and if writing were considered to be a more important component of games. But I don''t know if games like that would sell... I hope so.

-Moth

Ehm, why wouldn''t games like good books sell? Good books sell, good games sell ( even if they are crap by book standards ), game with book standard will sell squared.
It will be a good game, with artistic acceptance.


Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
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ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.

1) I''ve never seen anything I''d call a ''good book'' on the bestseller shelves. Non-best-selling writers often don''t make enough money to live on. Books don''t really sell that well, unfortunately. People would rather go see a movie.

2) Diablo II. The Sims. All those stupid hunting things... For many (most?) games, story is inconsequential, and therefore writing quality is trivial. It''s not so much that a game with good writing wouldn''t sell, it''s just that the sorts of games that sell the best, do not sell based on their writing...

I guess the point is to change that, somehow. Eh, just chalk my post up to lack of imagination and/or optimism, at 4:00 AM. I should just not post after midnight.

-Moth

Landfish, I agree wholeheartedly. I would like so badly to see/make a game that is so profound that it changes people''s view of life itself.

I watched a move this past weekend called Breakfast of Champions. It was very unconventional, and dealt with the most basic human question "Why are we here?". I would love to see a game do that. And not in some bullshit way where they just use it to have more meaningless plot and try to pretend there''s something profound there.

I think Hollywood is getting better slowly. The only special affects in American Beauty was probably a little blood, and it made a ton of money I''d bet. Maybe games just need time, but Landfish your rant was legit.





"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft

"Nazrix is cool." --Nazrix first, then Darkmage

I'm going to go rebel here and disagree.

For starters, I'm whole-heartedly with you on dissociating the average idiot writer (designer) from the _script_ing process. The main problem is when some moron tries to write a _script_ and makes up a bad one, this results in the _story_ not being a feature, but more like a hazard and added frustration to a possible weak gaming experience.

Games have a major priority, and that priority is fun. Games are made to be just games, I don't like to say it much mroe than you do, but that's what makes games good. If I really wanted to try and do something artistic, I would direct a movie (actually this could be related to that whole interactive movie uproar from a few years ago and how just about every interactive movie game sold crap all).

The reason why books and movies are more story oriented is because there are real humans either totally within the imagination of the reader, or on the screen infront of oyu in the cinema. There is real believability there, there is very little believability in games, where people are made from flat sheets of tin pasted together and the whole world is pretty finite and limited.

I think that it takes not necessarily a "writer" to make a good story for a game, it takes imagination. Anyone can come up with that, the only use for a writer, is not to make the story good, but to tell the story well. Like what Shakespeare did, he took good stories, and enabled others to tell them well.

Games should be fun, first, then maybe story line.

(p.s. actually the next project after this one that I've signed myself up for takes a strong look at religion and what drives people to madness, and the current project I'm working on involved a person with partial amnesia discovering his reason for being where he is as well as making up some debt to someone that he owes at the same time -> done before, but I'm sure it only takes a good telling of the story to make it good)


Edited by - Maitrek on September 6, 2000 5:39:13 AM