Human: So what do you do for a living?

Goblin: I make soap.

Human: Soap?

Goblin: Yep. I You know how those elven women are all so skinny? They use fat-reduction spells. So I steal their fat, make soap, and sell it back to them.

Human: You''re the most interesting single-player friend I''ve met. Get it? Single player?

Goblin: I get it. You wanna go get into a bare-handed fight with some orcs? We could start a club...

HAHAHA! LOL! Fight Club... Great movie!

-Chris Bennett ("Insanity" of Dwarfsoft)

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Yeap Fight Club is one of the best movies of all time but to get back to the post subject.

Why does everyone refer to goblins and other of the monster races as being evil. Why can''t orcs, for example, just be another society with different cultures and customs. Just like in the real world. French people, just an example, are different from Americans but should I as an american consider them evil. Nope.
I think a designer needs to sit down and decide the motives behind having different creatures and races in there games. Too often I see under developed worlds that players are thrown into.
Why are there orcs in this world? Why do humans consider them evil or not evil? What significance does it add to have orcs carry around human money?
For example. Hitler in my opinion was an evil man. And the German army although not themselves evil where carrying out the orders of there leader. One of the reasons the Allies where at war with the Axis. So in this sense the Germans army itself might or might not be considered evil but there actions in some cases where.
Say the humans where slaughtering orcs. Does that make humans evil or is it the actions that they carry out at a particular time evil? That is what you have to decide as a designer.
I would make monsters that don''t have a particular culture and just kill of free will be evil. Say a demon that gets pleasure from torturing and killing his victims.
To truely make a good game in my opinion this has to be distinguished. What is considered evil, when is something considered evil and is it evil all the time or only on certain occasions.

Various shades of grey?
What''s with this Status Quo anyhow?
To parley or not to?

Enough said.

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Our Goal is "Fun"!

quote: How many games out there in which you go out, kill some baddies (trolls or orcs or whatever), and then loot all this gold and other HUMANOID type stuff from them?? Does that make any sense? I mean, I could understand if a monster or two kill some human and grab his/her stuff, but every single one of them??

Yeah, I always asked myself what the monsters in Dungeon keeper would do with all the gold you payed them...

Edited by - Bberet on August 13, 2000 5:40:07 PM

How on earth do monsters get gold and items. Killing characters and raiding towns is the only way i can think of. But the thing is is that they can''t use it becuse they are so dumb that they''d just thump the crap out of each other to get what they want anyhow. To a monster the only value something has is Practical Value as well. The only other reason a monster might hog gold is just for selfishness or a desire to feel better that humans or as good as them. So i guess they might have a reason for having gold now.

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

Yeah x2... and I''m tired of hearing all this politically correct "monsters aren''t evil" hogwash. The definition of evil is variable, depending on who you''re talking about (everyone has their own opinion). So it''s kindof a pointless argument anyway.

-Tebriel, making sure this thread dosn''t get all mushy-mushy-pro-goblin''s-rights

===========================================
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.

-Albert Einstein

Tebriel I think you missed the point of my post. I was trying to get across the point that as a developer a person needs to look into the context of what creatures are evil and what makes them this way. It all has to do with creating a game world that seems more like a world than just a bunch of stupid creatures put there for people to kill. I think alot of people are making assumptions that my idea of how orcs or goblins relate to the other denizens in my game world is in the same context as they perceive orcs or goblins. Just because some guy came up with a creature that all of know of as an orc and that creature was originally meant to be evil that I myself or other people don''t have to accept this ideal in our own game worlds. In short if you have orcs and goblins in your world you have to decide why they are or are not evil and why they collect gold and use gold for monitary purposes. Just to state they are evil with no purpose is not valid enough in my opinion. I feel this is a big flaw in the industry today. That there is no purpose behind creatures such as orcs other than to provide a means for people to gain currency for there players. I think I''ve made my point without having to go into more detail.

I definietly agree one the idea that "monsters" should not carry human treasure or equipment, except in cases like the traditional dragon that like to horde gold. Personaly I still think even the dragon should put these worldly goods to use maybe buying power in local towns or such.

About the evilness of "monsters" in most stories I have written , and in some of my favorite fantasy novels, there is a great evil power that controls and uses the lower ones as soldiers. Some powerfull mage or demon who wants to rule the world or bring an end to it and buys off or rallies the lesser creatures . I never liked the goblins or orcs are evil for no reason stories I like them to have a good motivation for burning and pillaging. I also feel those actions should be present, not just orcs and goblins waiting for the hero to come flush them from thier cave but actualy out doing evil, killing, burning, conquering the realm.

Seperating the good from the evil like egg white and yoke is just plain old lazy script writing i believe. One thing that i liked in Fallout 1 was when you didn''t know (straight away) who was good and who was bad. You had to look into it, talk to people and find out for yourself. Although, i don''t blame the script writer themselves as usually this occurs due to corporate pressures and the like

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!