cbass2, I would kick the Diablo out of there (couse its not an rpg! And if it would be it would go in to type1) and put Fallout1/2 in its place.

On-topic:

What about a game where the objectives are to "develop" the character to a certain personality/ability? Missions like "turn Elric the Peasant into Elric the Fierce Fighter", or "Redeem Elvis the Evil Enchanter"?

Diablo is not an RPG because it is a mindless hack-n-slash. Do you develop relationships in Diablo? Do you speak with people unless you''re buying something or trying to get information? Do you ever have to dress like a woman enough too impress that guy in FFVII?

Plenty more exmaples but I''m in a rush. Later!

Look, people, this thread ISN''T about Diablo being an RPG or not. Cut it out already.

There seem to be basically two types of definitions for an RPG. The first one focuses on playing a role, like you do in paper and pen. It''s maybe the classical definition, derived from the early PnP days. People who define the genre like that will not like the idea of bringing new, arcade-type gameplay int their genre and dissolving the illusion of a real world.

The other definition is based on the mechanical part of the game, namely leveling up and developing a character. People who define RPG like that may very well enjoy a more abstract gameplay.

It''s not easy to separate the two (or more) groups of people, who define a genre differently. Many games satisfy more than one of the definitions, but others, like the ones the OP suggested, might not...

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What about a game where the objectives are to "develop" the character to a certain personality/ability? Missions like "turn Elric the Peasant into Elric the Fierce Fighter", or "Redeem Elvis the Evil Enchanter"?

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This does have a touch of "The Sims" in it, but I somehow like it. There could be a world filled with people, and each mission focuses on a differnet one (since the number of possible missions for one character are limited). For such a game I''d like missions like your seconds suggestion much better, since the first (peasant -> fighter) could be any action RPG...

Sorry MadKeithV, but a final note: If a roleplaying game is defined as having total freedom of action, then Diablo is not an RPG. But there is also no other game that does fulfill this restriction, and I even doubt there are many "real" DMs than can create such an open world...


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There are only 10 kinds of people: those that understand binary and those that don''t.

Bad Entertainment

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Original post by valkyr
Diablo is not an RPG because it is a mindless hack-n-slash.

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There''s a mindless element in this equation, but it''s not Diablo.

Dressing up like a women is hardly a "required action" in a pnp rpg.

What makes Diablo an rpg is that the combat is based (to its core) on what class you are and what abilities your character has. What makes Final Fantasy an rpg is simply that the character in the game are played (gameplay) with their role (abilities) in mind. Cloud uses melee weapons instead of magic because he is physically strong. Some female characters become primary magic-users because they are physically weaker.

If FF didn''t have a man dressed as a women to get into an area (that is entirely scripted, mind you, and not "free") - it wouldn''t be any less of an rpg.

As for the original topic:

The problem that so many games have with puzzles is that once the puzzle is solved, there is no longer a game. With a combat element, you could them mask the lack of a puzzle with twitch-gameplay, but for all the people who play games for puzzles and not action - they are going to be disappointed when they reach that point.

And chances are, the twich-gamers have already given up on the puzzles before they were solved. I can only see an effective combination by allowing the player to play "more puzzle, less action" or "more action, less puzzle", but not simply switching them - which will happen as soon as the puzzle is solved

Ah well, I was hoping that people would get my ''point''. But instead there is loads of argument over the definition of an RPG.

Let''s see, to me Final Fantasy is as much of an "RPG" as diablo, except that it has extra adventure style dialogue. If you want a game that concentrates on role playing, play Fallout !

What I was suggesting is that RPG plots are often pompous and overblown, and filled with cardboard cut out characters. The plots tend to be cliche. And the combat / abilities based gameplay can be DULL !

So let''s make a few games which say, plot who needs a plot! And concentrate on providing interesting fun gameplay challenges (like the missions in GTA3 did).

It doesn''t seem as though such a game would find a large preexisting audience though

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Original post by dgaf

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Original post by valkyr
Diablo is not an RPG because it is a mindless hack-n-slash.

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Dressing up like a women is hardly a "required action" in a pnp rpg.


If FF didn''t have a man dressed as a women to get into an area (that is entirely scripted, mind you, and not "free") - it wouldn''t be any less of an rpg.

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It is required to advance in the game. I was just using it as an example of one of the many non-combat features it seems (to me, and how I like to think of RPGs) to set it aside from a total combat-oriented game.

Please don''t use my statement of "required to advanmce in the game" as a weapon against me because I think of it as an RPG even if it isn''t totally linear.

But that area of the game in FF7 is scripted.

That element in FF7 is more of a "valley before a combat-peak" than anything else. In fact, I believe it was implemented solely for "comedic value" than any intended role-playing

Ketchaval, I think your game idea is great and I agree with all of your points. You should get to work on it right now.

As to whether or not RPGs need storylines, well they don''t. Story is very common in RPGs, but it''s not the defining gameplay mechanic. There are plenty of dungeon crawls and hack and slash games that have as much storyline as Quake, but are still considered RPGs. The only unique gameplay mechanic among all types of RPGs is character development (leveling up, skill systems, etc.) I would also say that the other gameplay (combat, conversation, etc.) needs to rely on the in game characters skills, and not entirely on player skill, although I think that is implied. For a game to be a "pure" RPG no other game mechanic can outweigh the focus on character development. Otherwise it''s a hybrid or a game with RPG elements.