Plot is my arch-nemisis. Some days I think it exists just to torment me. Despite having read most of the books available on the subject, I still don''t really have a ''feel'' for what plot is. A case in point - I recently posted the following to a writers'' group that I belong to asking for plot help. Another group member''s reply follows. Is she right? What would you suggest? What is plot? What does creating good plot feel like, or what techniques/activities do you use to help yourself get plot ideas?

quote: Sunandshadow1 wrote: I''m still having problems getting my plot figured out. I know I have the following ingredients: Political Faction A: - A military academy, which must be supporting some sort of political agenda. - The character Kayden, a student or graduated student of the military academy. Kayden is the major villian of the story but this doesn''t become obvious until 2/3 of the way through the book. - The character Attranath starts out as an ignorant, naive cadet at the military academy. He is very loyal and patriotic, so his first instinct is to support the military academy all the way. But about 1/2 way through the book he and his partner/construct Merru find out more about the larger political situation, they discover that they are on the wrong side, and switch to political faction B. Political Faction B: - Ravennin had the ambition of becoming a Dominion (clan leader), but he can''t. This is because he has a hormonal disorder that hobbles his ability to be a charismatic leader. There may be additional factors such as problems of inheritance. His father is still alive (and extremely traditional and a bit hidebound), so Ravennin would need to secure his own territory to rule. Also, he faces political and social censure if anybody finds out he has a male lover, especially his father who is prejudiced against betas of both genders. - Lieann (the beta male) is cunning, politically savvy, and good at strategy. He thinks up a sneaky plan to help Ravennin achieve his ambitions. The price he asks is that Ravennin has to be his lover, and marry him if the plan succeeds. Unfortunately by the time the plan kicks into high gear (1/2 way point of the book) Lieann is realizing he''s not happy with Ravennin as his lover. But Lieann is very proud and doesn''t want to admit that he made a mistake when he chose his price. The plan to make Ravennin a dominion must put these two men into direct opposition with the military academy. Okay, that''s the basic set up. The questions are: What is the military academy working towards that turns out to be bad? What obstacles prevent Ravennin from becoming a Dominion? What is Lieann''s sneaky plan to overcome these obstacles, and why does it require fighting against the military academy (and provide an excuse for Lieann and ravennin to capture Attranath and Merru, thus giving them the opportunity to switch sides? Did Ravannin attend a military academy, and if so was it the same one, or was it a different one not belonging to political faction A? How do Attranath and Merru end up being necessary to achieve Ravennin and Lieann''s goals? How does the resolution of this situation result in the characters becoming teachers at a military academy (either a reorganized, post-coup version of the political faction A academy, or some other academy with better politics, possibly a newly-founded one)? Are Ravennin and Lieann from the same country as the political faction A academy, Kayden, and Attranath? Constraints: I don''t want lots of characters getting killed. if there''s a coup it has to be a bloodless one that succeeds because of Lieann''s brialliant and sneaky strategy. I also don''t want a civil rights movement of any sort. The resolution must show that even though Ravennin was a dark-horse candidate and Lieann is bitchy and not terribly ethical, when the four characters get together and work as a team they establish a dynasty and/or school that is visionary and a evolutionary step for their culture. So? Ideas? Help please!

quote: Veingloria wrote: My overall impression is that what you list here are character motivations, none of this is plot. You are trying to move the characters around without a political situation, revolution, war or something to actuallly do that moving It is my personal feeling that plot driven stories created great characters, but character driven stories may not create great plots. Plots are a serious of events that cascade form a ''set-up'' or ''hook'' to a satisfying conclusion. Is a certain person become a leader satisfying? It depends whether they are motivates by a desire to do something good like end the persecution of a minority or reduce the gap between rich and poor. This is especially true is said leader is a secret member of that minority or in love with a person from the lower class (as examples). A military acdemy sound to me like a coup or putch. For inspiartion you might look at a modern event like Colonel Rambuka''s takeover of Fiji. This was a very compliacted affair (there have been two coups so far). It involved the main players of the military, the politicians, the tribal leaders, the foreigners (New Zealanders etc) and the mercenaries. the presence of more than two factions is what allows things to get really twisted and complicated with people having multiple allegences (son or cheif, in the army, married to Fiji-Indian girl flees to NZ etc). Motivation was mixed, Rambuka wanted to elevated native Fijians from poverty and exploitation (good) but he wanted to do it by discriminating against and persecuting Fiji Indians (bad). What will stop the person from doing these good things, his own flaws, his enemies, chance events etc (preferably all of these things?). very few people were killed in Fiji but they were beaten anbd driven off their land, the whole parliament was held at gun point for days, there were riots, failed crops, fleeing refugees etc. Hope this helps

Hmm, All writers have their weakness mine is wording I can never seem to get things written in a way that I am happy with, or maybe I'm just overly critical of my own work since others seem tolike it just not me.

I have to agree with the reply you got, you don't have a plot you have list of character sketches.

If your looking for activates to try and improve your plot writing ability try this. Write some short series of events, don't focus in on characters don't write any backgrounds for them just give them names also don't go into depth about setting a couple of sentences should be enough. Then try and make that series of events coherent and interesting to read from introduction to rise to climax and finally to conclusion.

Some random ideas are:
1) 6 strangers on an airplane.
2) A couple wakes up after throwing a party to find a dead man in their living room, and try to piece together what happened the night before.
3) A man walking home from work who has always taken the same route for the last 15 years decides to go a different way today.
4) Astronauts bring a small stone back from Mars, which results in an unexpected calamity when it reaches earth.




-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I'm a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document



[edited by - TechnoGoth on February 16, 2004 1:53:16 PM]

The military academy while a powerful elite force they lack influence outside their home country. Their goal is to implement the newly created 12-year plan. This plan consists of establishing a military academy in all 6 countries within five years. Once the academies are in place they will begin training and indoctrinating the youth of those countries turning them into a powerful military force loyal to the academy. Until finally in year 11 of the plan which calls for the assassination of the Dominion and seizure of control of all six countries by the military academy. Establishing a single military government and eliminating the old laws that lead to a society where heredity and not ability determine ones place in life.

Ravennin, the main obstacle in his path is his older sister Hera who while unable to rule herself since she is a woman. Once she is married her husband will inherit leadership of the clan which Hera while share in. Because of these inheritance laws Ravennin is unable to become a Dominion, normally a second son would be expected to act as family protector to his elder sibling, an idea that doesn’t agree with Ravennin’s ambitions.

Lieann’s cunning plan involves the seven taboos. These are ancient laws set down in the clan’s history, which carry the harshest punishment that no clan member can ignore or be exempt from. He proposes that Ravennin trick his sister and her fiancée into violating one of the seven taboos, thus forcing the Dominion to exile Hera and leaving him next in the line of succession.


Hera is currently promised to Kayden in an arranged marriage decided upon by her father the Dominion and the military academy. In order to provide the academy with political influence its lacking and providing the clan with the military power it needs in face of its waning strength. This is also the crucial first step in the 12-year plan, which will allow the military academy to have one of their own in control of a clan and allow them to begin convincing other Dominion to allow military academies in their countries. This also means that Ravennin and Lieann’s plan to eliminate his sister and place him in a position of power while bring them into direct conflict with the military academy do to their conflicting goals.


Attranath this young cadet as first prize in a essay writing contest for his essay on the meaning of loyalty, was awarded a place on the honor guard that will be escorting Kayden and representing the academy at the wedding. Merru his construct, friend and protector accompanies him on the journey.

Upon arriving at the estate of Dominion all the characters meet for the first time. Hera takes an immediate dislike to Kayden and exchanges a smile and a long stare with Attranath. Lieann noticing this immediately sees the opportunity he has been looking for, and him and Ravennin hatch a plan to get Hera and Attranath together thus violating the taboo of fidelity. So Lieann begins to befriend Attranath while Ravennin works on his sister to undermine Kayden and uplift Attranath.

Meanwhile Kayden noticing Hera’s interest in Attranath decides to make him his official liaison to her. In exchange he asks that Attranath find out all he can about the Dominion and his family in the guise of interest about his future family but in reality he is using Attranath as spy in order to uncover any weakness he can exploit. Since he believes Hera would be more open towards Attranath’s questions then to his own which she may become suspicious of.

Merru eventually realize that his poor naive friend is caught up in these two plots and so devises a plan of his own that will expose their hidden agendas and protect his friend.

Everything finally comes to ahead at the start of the climax when the Dominion is found dead on the morning of the wedding. Leading to panic and chaos as everyone tries to bring their personal agendas to fruition before the fateful wedding. Meanwhile the guests and dignitaries from other countries are assembling at the chapel. Ravennin and Lieann are trying to get Attranath into Hera’s room alone, so that a compromising situation can be discovered. Kayden is oddly silent as he prepares for the wedding and greets the guests. Merru is trying to keep Attranath away from Hera, Ravennin, and Lieann, while at the same time attempting to determine the identity of the Dominions murderer.

Finally he discovers that Kayden was poisoning the Dominion slowly since he arrived however made a mistake on the dosage since the Dominion was not suppose to die before the wedding. However before he can present anyone with the evidence he discovers that Attranath is gone and Lieann has tricked him into going to Hera’s private chamber. Moments before Merru can get there, Hera’s bridesmaids arrive catching Hera and Attranath in what appears to be compromising situation. But is really the result of series of accidents. Ravennin and Lieann believing their plan has succeed head off to inform the dignities. However Merru succeeds in stalling them long enough to send poor Attranath who has no idea what is going on away to safety.

After a brief struggle the sound of the chapel bell is heard ringing announcing the start of wedding. Ravennin and Lieann escape from Merru and three run off towards the chapel. They burst through the doors just as the bride and groom wearing ceremonial masks turn to greet the assembled guests for the first time as man and wife. Ravennin yells for everyone to stop and presents the evidence for his sister infidelity and breaking of the 3 taboo.

Then to everyone’s surprise the groom removes his mask to reveal Attranath and not Kayden. Attranath then explains that he ran into Kayden in the hall and was told that the mask was part of his honor guard costume for the wedding and that he should go wait in the chapel. Once he entered everyone took him for the groom and the mask made it difficult to protest and before he knew it he found himself at the altar getting married.

Merru laughing exposes the plots of the military academy’s 12-year plan and Ravennin and Lieann’s plot to oust Hera and seize control of the clan. He also reveals the proof of Kayden murder of the former Dominion, which is also the reason for his absence at the wedding.

When everything settles down Ravennin and Lieann are exiled, Kayden is on the run for his life, the military academy is dissolved, and Attranath is the new Dominion and married to the woman he loves Hera. With the advice and aid of Merru they in the end decided to dissolve the caste system and eliminate the 7 taboos.

********
Does this help at all with your plot problem.

-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
Plot is my arch-nemisis. Some days I think it exists just to torment me. Despite having read most of the books available on the subject, I still don''t really have a ''feel'' for what plot is.

Well, I am amazed, sunandshadow. Two things I have to say right off the bat are, anyone who can handle the metaphorical context of kissing a dragon is a, taking on an amazingly high literary mountain with twisty and perilous trails at best, and should relax because of the foreknowledge she is not writing "Rap Stars on Mars" by Flabbergasted Productions, but something majorly challenging literarily, if solely for the originality of approach.

B, You are absolutely on the right key when you say "feel". Plot is often described (and I know you know this, particularly with your encyclopedic understanding and education) as, "What''s at stake?" Lots of ppl think this is ''the stakes'' what will be won, lost or neutralized via actions and circumstance. But it can also mean the feeling the characters have going on in the back of their mind (expressed or not; see: confused looks on protagonist''s faces in film) regarding just simple grasping the whole tamale of what they are up against, or involved in, of subject to.

quote:
What does creating good plot feel like, or what techniques/activities do you use to help yourself get plot ideas?

Good plot grips you, won''t let you stop thinking about the welfare of your protagonist, or stop salivating about the day you get to write the scene where the antagonist gets their comuppance.

I go watch people, people are such drama queens in this world anymore, they are practically walking plot generators with everything they say or do. The trick is that they are all bad b melodramatists at it, so nothing they do is good, hardly at all, but they do generate massive amounts of bad data you can upgrade with writing skills/plot design skills and overwrite the awful stuff.

I also do more formalized stuff, like taking two totally unrelated plots and crashing them together, reading one line, then another, and the resulting mixup makes me laugh at the incongruity at first, which lightens things up, then, if you keep doing it, some things sort or start to make odd sense, and you can break a stale or uncompelling plot out of the ice floe so to speak simply by changing the way you evaluate it.

quote:
Sunandshadow1 wrote:


I''m still having problems getting my plot figured out.

I know I have the following ingredients:


Political Faction A:

- A military academy, which must be supporting some sort of political
agenda.

- The character Kayden, a student or graduated student of the military
academy. Kayden is the major villian of the story but this doesn''t
become obvious until 2/3 of the way through the book.

- The character Attranath starts out as an ignorant, naive cadet at
the military academy. He is very loyal and patriotic, so his first
instinct is to support the military academy all the way. But about
1/2 way through the book he and his partner/construct Merru find out
more about the larger political situation, they discover that they are
on the wrong side, and switch to political faction B.


Political Faction B:

- Ravennin had the ambition of becoming a Dominion (clan leader), but
he can''t. This is because he has a hormonal disorder that hobbles his
ability to be a charismatic leader. There may be additional factors
such as problems of inheritance. His father is still alive (and
extremely traditional and a bit hidebound), so Ravennin would need to
secure his own territory to rule. Also, he faces political and social
censure if anybody finds out he has a male lover, especially his
father who is prejudiced against betas of both genders.

- Lieann (the beta male) is cunning, politically savvy, and good at
strategy. He thinks up a sneaky plan to help Ravennin achieve his
ambitions. The price he asks is that Ravennin has to be his lover,
and marry him if the plan succeeds. Unfortunately by the time the
plan kicks into high gear (1/2 way point of the book) Lieann is
realizing he''s not happy with Ravennin as his lover. But Lieann is
very proud and doesn''t want to admit that he made a mistake when he
chose his price. The plan to make Ravennin a dominion must put these
two men into direct opposition with the military academy.



Okay, that''s the basic set up. The questions are: What is the
military academy working towards that turns out to be bad? What
obstacles prevent Ravennin from becoming a Dominion? What is Lieann''s
sneaky plan to overcome these obstacles, and why does it require
fighting against the military academy (and provide an excuse for
Lieann and ravennin to capture Attranath and Merru, thus giving them
the opportunity to switch sides? Did Ravannin attend a military
academy, and if so was it the same one, or was it a different one not
belonging to political faction A? How do Attranath and Merru end up
being necessary to achieve Ravennin and Lieann''s goals? How does the
resolution of this situation result in the characters becoming
teachers at a military academy (either a reorganized, post-coup
version of the political faction A academy, or some other academy with
better politics, possibly a newly-founded one)? Are Ravennin and
Lieann from the same country as the political faction A academy,
Kayden, and Attranath?


Constraints: I don''t want lots of characters getting killed. if
there''s a coup it has to be a bloodless one that succeeds because of
Lieann''s brialliant and sneaky strategy. I also don''t want a civil
rights movement of any sort. The resolution must show that even
though Ravennin was a dark-horse candidate and Lieann is bitchy and
not terribly ethical, when the four characters get together and work
as a team they establish a dynasty and/or school that is visionary and
a evolutionary step for their culture.



So? Ideas? Help please!

quote:
Veingloria wrote:

My overall impression is that what you list here are character
motivations, none of this is plot. You are trying to move the
characters around without a political situation, revolution, war or
something to actuallly do that moving It is my personal feeling that
plot driven stories created great characters, but character driven
stories may not create great plots.

Plots are a serious of events that cascade form a ''set-up'' or ''hook''
to a satisfying conclusion. Is a certain person become a leader
satisfying? It depends whether they are motivates by a desire to do
something good like end the persecution of a minority or reduce the
gap between rich and poor. This is especially true is said leader is
a secret member of that minority or in love with a person from the
lower class (as examples).

A military acdemy sound to me like a coup or putch. For inspiartion
you might look at a modern event like Colonel Rambuka''s takeover of
Fiji. This was a very compliacted affair (there have been two coups
so far). It involved the main players of the military, the
politicians, the tribal leaders, the foreigners (New Zealanders etc)
and the mercenaries. the presence of more than two factions is what
allows things to get really twisted and complicated with people
having multiple allegences (son or cheif, in the army, married to
Fiji-Indian girl flees to NZ etc). Motivation was mixed, Rambuka
wanted to elevated native Fijians from poverty and exploitation
(good) but he wanted to do it by discriminating against and
persecuting Fiji Indians (bad).

What will stop the person from doing these good things, his own
flaws, his enemies, chance events etc (preferably all of these
things?). very few people were killed in Fiji but they were beaten
anbd driven off their land, the whole parliament was held at gun
point for days, there were riots, failed crops, fleeing refugees
etc.

Hope this helps

All this stuff that was just written sounds more like circumstances of plot rather than emotional drivers of plot.

I''m not sure they are going to solve their plot problem with this type of approach.

To me, it''s just like quitting smoking cigarettes. Everytime you light up, ask yourself, "What am I feeling?" and the act of identification, over and over across the function of time, will piece together the emotional drivers that make you self medicate with nicotine, a peak emotional supressant.

Chain those feelings up and it will make a list of plot drivers, compare those plot drivers (the emotional ones) to the biographical emotional background of the protagonist, and you are on the way to some important discoveries.

HTH,

Adventuredujour

Okay I will get to replying to you guys. First, here is the reply to veingloria that I spent the evening working on, for your perusal. Sorry if the outline comes out messy. o_O

quote:
sunandshadow1 wrote:

"none of this is plot." I've been contemplating this phrase since yesterday. It isn't? As I understand it, plot is the difference between what the characters want and what they have; the obstacles they have to overcome to get what they want, and the actions they take to overcome these obstacles. I know about Freytag's Pyramid and n-act play structures and plot snakes and trees. I personally like the grammatical tree model best because I think of plot as being the grammar of a story. I know that a short story should have one plot arc, while a novel has to have a more complicated plot structure, with two or more plot arcs where the action intensifies with each new plot arc until you get to the climax, which usually corresoponds with the climax of the last plot arc of the story.

How does this all apply to what I want to write? I drew a little diagram, and, amazingly enough, all the things I've thought of for my story so far do fit neatly into a Freytag's Pyramid. The plot has two strands for the first half of the story, but each has its own exposition, initial incident, and rising action.


Plot Arc 1, Strand A -

Exposition

Attranath is introduced (bastard nobility, inferiority complex, naive about sex, loyal, wanting to belong to something larger)
The military academy is described from Attranath's pov
Merru is introduced (smart, playboy, has mastered his life)
Merru is translated into a construct body and reacts to this
Dragons and the military academy are described from Merru's pov
Attranath, Constructs, and Merru are described from Bannis' pov

Initial Incident

Bannis gives Merru to Attranath

Rising Action

Merru learns about himself as a dragon (including his preferance for beta males), what's expected of him as a construct, what he can get away with as a smart construct who can talk, and Attranath
Attranath learns about himself as a submissive, and Merru
Merru and Attranath work together as a pair and part of a troop
Attranath learns not to let social pressure interfere with his loyalty to Merru. (Kayden is acting as a minor villian providing the social pressure here)

Climax

Attranath has a dream which reveals to him that he is attracted to Merru
Attranath and Merru have sex
Attranath says "I love you" but Merru qualifies this that they love each other as brothers, not as ardenmates, and describes what he thinks Attranath's ideal ardenmate would be like. They try going clubbing together and sharing a lover.

Resolution

Attranath and Merru get handfasted as brother mates, with Merru the dom and Attranath the sub.


Plot Arc 1, Strand B -

Exposition

Lieann is introduced (intelligent, cunning, manipulative, lonely, disliked)
Lieann notices Ravennin and thinks about his potential
Ravennin is introduced (hunting, hormonal disorder, tiered nobility)

Initial Incident

Lieann hatches a plan and gets Ravennin to agree to it

Rising Action

Ravennin and Lieann become lovers and Ravennin thinks a lot about how this affects his identity
Ravennin screws Merru at the handprint party and is awakened to the idea that he can have sex with an alpha male
Ravennin talks to his sister and realizes that after he had sex with Merru he could tolerate him socially despite his hormonal disorder

Climax

Ravennin comes under suspicion by his father
Ravennin and Lieann have grown dissatisfied with each other as lovers, but are trapped by the success of the first part of their plan

Resolution

Ravennin and Lieann initiate phase two of their plan, bringing them into direct opposition of the military academy, and therefore Merru and Attranath


So, each of these strands is a complete plot arc. The two happen in paralell, and comprise the exposition, initial incident, and rising action of the novel's overall plot. Now the plots become unified for the next plot arc.


Plot Arc 2

Exposition

Merru and Attranath are given a propagandistic briefing about Lieann and Ravennin, and an assignment to carry out to work against them
Lieann and Ravennin discuss the problem of the military academy and its forces, and their plan for dealing with this

Initial Incident

Merru and Attranath attempt their missions and are captured. Merru ends up in Lieann's possession while Attranath ends up with Ravennin (this may or may not involve a masquerade ball) Attranath has been disguised as a construct

Rising Action

Merru observes Lieann: how everyone is cruel to him and this hurts his feelings. Merru feels sympathetic to Lieann, and attracted to him. Merru resists being attracted to Lieann because he knows it is strategically unwise. The have sex - Merru's usual caring manner startles Lieann, and Merru fails at keeping himself emotionally distant.
Attranath, appearing as a construct, reminds Ravennin of having sex with Merru. Attranath, sees Ravennin and is struck by his physical magnetism and scent; Attranath is startled by the strength of his attraction, afraid that he will give away that he's gay, afraid of his lack of self-preservationary instinct because Ravennin is much more likely to attack him than screw him, and guilty for various reasons.

Climax

Lieann comes to see Merru as a person and that he wants Merru as his ardenmate even in preference to a real and very virile dragon like Ravennin.
Merru realizes that he has finally fallen in love with someone, and ponders the mystery of this as well as the problem of how to keep his love.
Ravennin is very tense (perhaps because he has been made to drink red muskfroth as part of the army's celebration?) Ravennin fidgets and paces for a while, then gets the idea of taking his sexual frustrations out on Attranath. They screw, and are both astonished at how perfectly they fit together and how intense their relationship is. Ravennin worries about getting out of his deal with Lieann, and Attranath worries about his loyalty to Merru and whether Ravennin will object to his already being Merru's submate.

Resolution

The four characters finally get together to discuss things. Marru and Attranath join Ravennin and Lieann's political side, and are no longer prisoners. Ravennin tells his father he's finally met the man he wants as his submate, and introduces Attranath to his family.


Plot Arc 3 (Final One)

Exposition

The military academy finally feels threatened and begins to fight as hard as it can.

Initial Incident

Attranath tells Kayden that he is engaged to Ravennin.

Rising Action

Kayden, again acting as the voice of social censure, opposes Attranath's engagement to Ravennin. He tries to sway Ravennin's father to oppose the match, argues with Ravennin, and denounces everyone as guilty of sodomy.
The military, in response to charges of sodomy and treason, attempt to imprison Attranath and Merru, thus revealing themselves as villians by violating their half of Attranath's loyalty to them.
Bannis is involved in these trials.

Climax

Erm, haven't figured this one out yet.

Resolution

Attranath, Merru, and Lieann happily teach at a reorganized and liberalized military academy which Ravennin is the Dominion of. It is a matter of public knowledge which of them are whose ardenmates, although it still startles the incoming cadets each year. Lieann and Merru are combining their strategic geniuses to try to figure out if there's any way they can have kids.

EDIT: trying to make the outline easier to read >.<


[edited by - sunandshadow on February 17, 2004 2:11:12 AM]

quote: "Rap Stars on Mars" by Flabbergasted Productions

Who tipped you off? We may have to kill him or her.

Regarding "plot"; I feel that plot is closer to "story" or "synopsis" than it is to "character" or "motivation".

`plot` is direction. Though hplus0603''s description of ''story'' works too I guess.

Plot is what draws the reader in, plot is the backbone of the story.


Well, for what my thoughts are worth anyway (:

...

> What is the military academy working towards that turns out to be bad?

Nearly anything: Resources... Territory.. They could be greedy


> What obstacles prevent Ravennin from becoming a Dominion?

> What is Lieann''s sneaky plan to overcome these obstacles, and why does it require fighting against the military academy (and provide an excuse for Lieann and ravennin to capture Attranath and Merru, thus giving them the opportunity to switch sides?
(missed closing pren )

Sneaky plan is my stumbling block, but some ideas.. .
* Lieann’s plan involves two people of faction A (thus the capture of Attranath and Merru)
* Lieann’s plan does NOT involves people of faction A but Faction A knows of this plan and sends Attranath and Merru to investigate/stop it/whatever it.


> Did Ravannin attend a military academy, and if so was it the same one, or was it a different one not belonging to political faction A?

Might be a good idea, gives a reason Ravannin to warm to Attranath and Merru.
Might support why Lieann’s plan requires two of Faction A.


> How do Attranath and Merru end up being necessary to achieve Ravennin and Lieann''s goals?

* Inside information of Faction A.
* inside agents (erm double agents yea that is the term)... they have required security clearance or something.


> How does the resolution of this situation result in the characters becoming teachers at a military academy (either a reorganized, post-coup version of the political faction A academy, or some other academy with better politics, possibly a newly-founded one)?

Erm, desire(they wanted to)... reward(position gifted to them.. cushy or the like, may or may not like position).. um assigned (military after all; may or may not like it)


> Are Ravennin and Lieann from the same country as the political faction A academy, Kayden, and Attranath?

Gives them a greater reason to `be friends`... But then describe why the two went to Faction B...






...

It is the same problem I have... I have this neat character (wear lion/mind mage) who is in a town (for some reason) and is almost robbed by a fledgling human assassin/thief … but uh he heirs her and um they latter on become friends and companions.

WHY WHY WHY!?

Or the omnipotent lich who is out wandering around (got board, or is looking for something or ... something.) ... stuff happens but what stuff what flesh. Where is the story/plot (or in this one setting even)

Or the wearwolf thrown out of his own body (and dimension) into an evil mage’s... LOTS of possibilities but where to take it all…


I often wonder if something like the D&D adventure cookbook is a valid approach to figure out/decide what should happen and such.

A story, after all, is not so dissimilar to an adventure.



...

Veingloria has probably a good point when (she?) said:

quote:
It is my personal feeling that plot driven stories created great characters, but character driven stories may not create great plots.

Because it is the plot (conflict/environment...life) that makes (really shapes) a character... For instance, a character that has a bloodlust Vs orks because orks destroyed her village, etc.

The true trick is to make the characters grow during the story. Or perhaps I should say to make the character live, and growing is but a part of that.



> plot is the difference between what the characters want and what they have;
No, (least not in my definition), that is drive, desire, a motivating force, something that makes the characters more interesting and why they get out of bed in the morning.

Plot is story related, not character related... Least in my opinion.

Anyway I’m just a wannabe anyway so for what it is worth (=

Luck!

quote: Original post by hplus0603

quote: "Rap Stars on Mars" by Flabbergasted Productions

Who tipped you off? We may have to kill him or her.

Regarding "plot"; I feel that plot is closer to "story" or "synopsis" than it is to "character" or "motivation".

Synopses are overviews. Story is the lyric of plot readers engage with, it is the performance song of the plot/saga. Character is story, unless zillions of writers and academics have had it wrong for centuries. I don't really care, because I use all the tools to keep you reading and coughing up cash for it.

Also, splitting hairs really doesn't matter, what matters is the reader is engaged, educated, entertained and enlighted, any way you get there. It's like enlightenment; it doesn't care how you get there, it just cares that you arrive.

/me apologizes for the ranting, some lady hit my van door with her door in a parking lot and tried to pretend it didn't happen.



[edited by - adventuredesign on February 17, 2004 3:25:49 PM]

[edited by - adventuredesign on February 17, 2004 3:28:25 PM]

sunandshadow,

Have you read Writing the Breakout Novel? Given the rather sensationalist, non-plot-specific title, I'm guessing you might not have. But it helped me wrap much more of my brain around plot than anything else I've read, and I've read a fair amount. YMMV, of course.

Now to pick at your outline a bit, because that's the other thing that seems to help me wrap my brain around plot...

quote: Exposition

Attranath is introduced (bastard nobility, inferiority complex, naive about sex, loyal, wanting to belong to something larger)
The military academy is described from Attranath's pov
Merru is introduced (smart, playboy, has mastered his life)
Merru is translated into a construct body and reacts to this
Dragons and the military academy are described from Merru's pov
Attranath, Constructs, and Merru are described from Bannis' pov

Err. I don't think you ought to do this, actually. Big chunks of exposition before you get to your inciting incident strikes me as a Bad Idea. You've got to sneak the exposition in here and there, after your plot is underway. You get a little leeway at the beginning, so you could probably start with an introduction of your POV character, on his way to the inciting incident. Also, "Merru is translated into a construct body and reacts to this" sounds like plot, not exposition. The rest seems a bit iffy, without plot-based tension to pull the reader through it.

quote: Initial Incident

Bannis gives Merru to Attranath

I don't really know the details of your story, but I think you might be able to start there. As a reader, I don't need to know what's going on or how things work, if you catch my attention with an interesting situation, and show me what it means as you go on from there. Someone giving someone else a sentient dragon-construct? I'm hooked.

quote: Rising Action

Merru learns about himself as a dragon (including his preferance for beta males), what's expected of him as a construct, what he can get away with as a smart construct who can talk, and Attranath
Attranath learns about himself as a submissive, and Merru
Merru and Attranath work together as a pair and part of a troop
Attranath learns not to let social pressure interfere with his loyalty to Merru. (Kayden is acting as a minor villian providing the social pressure here)

I'm afraid I don't see much tension developing here. Of course, it may be between the lines, in your characters' reactions to what they're learning -- if so, I think you should spell it out. Your parenthetical refers to social pressure, but the sentence before (Attranath learns not to let social pressure interfere with his loyalty to Merru) sounds more like a minor resolution than rising action.

quote: Climax

Attranath has a dream which reveals to him that he is attracted to Merru
Attranath and Merru have sex
Attranath says "I love you" but Merru qualifies this that they love each other as brothers, not as ardenmates, and describes what he thinks Attranath's ideal ardenmate would be like. They try going clubbing together and sharing a lover.

There are more separate points here than should properly fall under "climax," I think. What the climax actually is depends mostly on what your characters need to overcome, to reach the subsequent resolution. And I'm not clear on what that is, at this point.

quote: Lieann is introduced (intelligent, cunning, manipulative, lonely, disliked)
Lieann notices Ravennin and thinks about his potential
Ravennin is introduced (hunting, hormonal disorder, tiered nobility)

Initial Incident

Lieann hatches a plan and gets Ravennin to agree to it

Not too much exposition this time, that's good. I'm a bit thrown, though, by not knowing who the protagonist is. Even if you're alternating POVs in your writing, I think it helps to know whose plot arc it is. Multiple protagonists is a possibility, but it's a lot easier to work with one. Right now it seems like you may have four .

Speaking for myself... I definitely wouldn't attempt that.

quote: Ravennin and Lieann become lovers and Ravennin thinks a lot about how this affects his identity
Ravennin screws Merru at the handprint party and is awakened to the idea that he can have sex with an alpha male
Ravennin talks to his sister and realizes that after he had sex with Merru he could tolerate him socially despite his hormonal disorder

All right, sounds like Ravennin's the protagonist for this arc. Again, though, I'm not seeing much tension -- unless Ravennin's thoughts are tending towards the negative -- and the last bit seems more like a resolution than rising action.

quote: Climax

Ravennin comes under suspicion by his father
Ravennin and Lieann have grown dissatisfied with each other as lovers, but are trapped by the success of the first part of their plan

See, this is what I'd call rising action. Things are start to go wrong... but it doesn't seem like the maximum point of tension, which is what a climax should be. Ravennin is under suspicion, but not yet accused; their relationship is under stress, but not yet disintegrating... I'd expect things to get worse before they get better.

quote: Resolution

Ravennin and Lieann initiate phase two of their plan, bringing them into direct opposition of the military academy, and therefore Merru and Attranath

Again, I'd call this rising action. I may be missing something, but I don't see what's been resolved here.

quote:
Initial Incident

Merru and Attranath attempt their missions and are captured. Merru ends up in Lieann's possession while Attranath ends up with Ravennin (this may or may not involve a masquerade ball) Attranath has been disguised as a construct

Definitely go with the masquerade ball. Another case of "I may not know what's going on here, but it certainly sounds interesting." (I realize the reader probably will know what's going on, that's just my personal reaction to the outline.)

quote: Rising Action
Merru observes Lieann: how everyone is cruel to him and this hurts his feelings. Merru feels sympathetic to Lieann, and attracted to him. Merru resists being attracted to Lieann because he knows it is strategically unwise. The have sex - Merru's usual caring manner startles Lieann, and Merru fails at keeping himself emotionally distant.
Attranath, appearing as a construct, reminds Ravennin of having sex with Merru. Attranath, sees Ravennin and is struck by his physical magnetism and scent; Attranath is startled by the strength of his attraction, afraid that he will give away that he's gay, afraid of his lack of self-preservationary instinct because Ravennin is much more likely to attack him than screw him, and guilty for various reasons.

Tension! Drama! Definitely rising action, this time.

I still think you may run into trouble juggling four protagonists.

quote: Climax:

Lieann comes to see Merru as a person and that he wants Merru as his ardenmate even in preference to a real and very virile dragon like Ravennin.
Merru realizes that he has finally fallen in love with someone, and ponders the mystery of this as well as the problem of how to keep his love.
Ravennin is very tense (perhaps because he has been made to drink red muskfroth as part of the army's celebration?) Ravennin fidgets and paces for a while, then gets the idea of taking his sexual frustrations out on Attranath. They screw, and are both astonished at how perfectly they fit together and how intense their relationship is. Ravennin worries about getting out of his deal with Lieann, and Attranath worries about his loyalty to Merru and whether Ravennin will object to his already being Merru's submate.

Okay. Lieann has a resolution of sorts here, if he was previously seeing Merru as a not-person. Depending on his relationship with Ravennin, this may also count as rising action for that arc -- does he need to resolve things with him? Merru pondering love doesn't strike me as a climax or a resolution. Depending on Merru's perspective on love prior to this, I suppose it could be. Ravennin and Attranath... are a bit too convenient, besides seeming more like an inciting incident for a new sub-plot than a climax. Two of your protagonists fall for each other, and then their partners fall for each other, thus removing the natural obstacle to everyone's happiness?

It just seems a little too easy, although if they all proceed to conceal what's happened, and none of them find out, you could get some tension -- and some rather painful dramatic irony -- out of that, for a while. But the tension would still be limited by the fact that the readers know the resolution now, and they'll just be waiting for the characters to figure it out.

quote: The four characters finally get together to discuss things. Marru and Attranath join Ravennin and Lieann's political side, and are no longer prisoners. Ravennin tells his father he's finally met the man he wants as his submate, and introduces Attranath to his family.

Again: I think this is much, much too easy. Or, to put it another way: You're being too nice to your characters, and everything is just working out for them left and right.

You want to know what plot is, besides all that structural stuff? Plot is you being mean. Things have to get bad for your character(s), and when they try to make it better, it has to get worse. Some things might get better, it may even look like everything's solved for a bit... but it quickly becomes apparent that it hasn't, and now there are Even Bigger Problems. Repeat as necessary, until everything's as bad as it's going to get... and then, when they finally overcome whatever they've got to overcome, it will really mean something. Not just to them, but to the reader, too.

That's how I think about it, anyhow.

"Sweet, peaceful eyelash spiders! Live in love by the ocean of my eyes!" - Jennifer Diane Reitz

[edited by - Logodae on February 17, 2004 9:10:50 PM]

TechnoGoth - First, thank you for the long and detailed response! There are some ideas in here I really like: Kayden wanting to marry Ravennin''s sister especially. And your description of the military academy and the seven taboos sparked the idea that maybe the military academy should be kind of supremicist and condemning people they don''t approve of, like the nazis condemned jews and communists and gays. I don''t know a whole lot about how supremacist movements arise, but it seems to me that if the soldiers think that they''re better than civilians, and the army is the major source of new nobility, and Kayden is the charismatic heir of a noble military clan and inclined to give persuasive political speeches... it seems to me a natural evolution for the military academy to be the breeding ground of a supremacist movement. I have to do some research before I decide that this is definitely what I want to do, but if so, then one of the big problems of my plot has been solved! ^_^ So thank you very much!