Brace yourselves, I might have come up with something that's not totally stupid. Every once in a while I have a good thought and I try to write it down and expand on it. Here's the relevant portion. "It occured to me that such a dramatic change was like magic. I then realized that magic could be treated or perhaps is, an extension of physics. Magic is another form of manipulating the world. Instead of tediously writing up spells and effects, magic is integrated into the physics of the game. I know using combinations of various magic words or words can create varied spells, but they are all cut-and-paste. There are few surprises and special cases can create all the work a rune system is supposed to prevent. The new design challenge is designing the system that allows mere mortals to access magic, designing the ingenuis operations that are performed on the magical plane, and figuring out how to infuse the rest of the objects in the game world with the properties which can be affected by magic." and applying damage. I like this because I think it would lead to more natural magic, like you see on tv or in Mage: The Ascension and the method could implement any method I've read on this forum. I really do like Mage's magic system, but the problem is that a dm has to figure out the effect of every spell so it's hard to bring to a computer realistically. I know this is very general and more tech than design, but I believe a game design and a game engine should complement each other and I like this forum. edit: good for sci-fi too I think [edited by - RolandofGilead on February 9, 2004 1:57:53 AM]

I always loved M:TA''s theory of magic-use. The entire idea of literally re-writing reality is very amusing to my mind.

The problem I can see with such an undertaking the the amount of pre-scripting and limiting necessary to make such a system work and be believable. Sure, you can change an object''s size or weight with magic, or maybe create something, but the problem in using what feels like such an open-ended system is that you simply cannot, in modern tech, GIVE the player that much control over their power yet.

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Not to burst your bubble - it is a good idea - but this is actually an old concept. Little-used, granted, but old.

Check out GURPS' "Technomancer" magic system, or the Shadowrun concept of the Urban Shaman/Technoshaman.

Many SF writers have written stories - novels and shorts - about the concept of magic as an alternate science. Alchemy is exactly that - a blending of natural science and mystic/arcane lore.

I don't think it's a great challenge to incorporate "scientific magic" into a game simply because it IS a game. The physics behind it all are background story; the gamer won't care that his BFG is actually a mechanized magic scepter. All he'll care about is stats.

Replace batteries with crystals, robots for golems, aircraft with carts that have inbued levitation spells, and you have a very rich magical/technological world.

Edit: I was stuck on something in your post, and after a few re-reads I realized what bothered me:

quote:

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"It occured to me that such a dramatic change was like magic. I then realized that magic could be treated or perhaps is, an extension of physics. Magic is another form of manipulating the world. Instead of tediously writing up spells and effects, magic is integrated into the physics of the game.

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You almost seem to contradict yourself. You suggest that magic can be treated like physics, or as an extension of physics - but then you want to do away with the formulaic x+y=z mathematical system. I'm not sure this would work in a game, if for no other reason than as a programmer you simply HAVE to code in all the possible formulaic combinations and animate those effects. You can't (with current technology) program code that will let the player do whatever he/she wants with whatever effects desired; you'd need an AI that doesn't exist, and if it did it could literally create the game itself as it ran.

Not that I wouldn't like to see this, mind you.

I fully admit I haven't played M:TA, not since I hung up my tattered Malkavian clothes and stopped playing V:TM. I would, however, absolutely reject the use of "tv magic"; the principles and concepts (or lack thereof) in shows like "Charmed" sicken me, having little or no basis in occult/mystic beliefs (although I do give props to "Buffy" for their consistency and solid roots with use of magic).

I will say this: however free-form and open a magic system may appear, at its heart is a very specific set of principles. I'm willing to go on record to say that in designed a game based on magical theories the most open system you could currently design would have to be cut-and-paste.

But I'd be willing to be proven wrong

[edited by - EricTrickster on February 9, 2004 1:42:15 PM]

It wouldn''t nessarily require pre scripting. Instead it would require each object having a set of stats and phyics engine that uses those stats. You then make all "spells" essentially modifers to those stats.

So if there was object crate:
Material = wood
Length = 1
Width = 1
Height = 1
Weight = 100
Durability = 100

So if the crate is to heavy to move the player cast "feather weight" which decrease the weight of the object by 10, making the crate light enough to carry. Or cast another spell to make the material metal.

If it was bridge instead of a crate then the player could cast weaken on bridge making reducing durabilty to 1 and causing it to collapse when your pursur steps on to the bridge.

It would make a very instersing FPS type game, where instead of weapons you manipluate the objects in the world with magic to defeat your opponets.

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quote:

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Original post by EricTrickster
I''m not sure this would work in a game, if for no other reason than as a programmer you simply HAVE to code in all the possible formulaic combinations and animate those effects.

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No, you don''t. There are technologies - widely available and deployed today - that allow for external pieces of code to modify the internals of other pieces of code (generally, this is called introspection as far as programming languages are concerned). With a little planning, it is possible to create a class of constructs that can interact with each other (such that casting two or more spells on an object can have unpredictable/non-deterministic results, if so desired). Base constructs can be provided, and players can be encouraged to create their own, blurring the distinction between what is and isn''t part of the game.

Physical resolution systems are becoming increasingly popular, allowing for dynamic animation of object interactions. With a relatively "complete" physical object model and consistent resolution rules, much of the per-instance animation can be computationally derived.

Of course, we''re diverging from game design. Don''t necessarily give up on an idea because it may require a lot of work. This suggestion, while not new or necessarily proven, is achievable with some skill and inspiration. That is not an endorsement. There is potential in the idea, but someone has to realize it.

Interesting - I stand corrected. Are there any games out today using this concept/technology that you can think of? I''d like to see them in action.

quote:

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Original post by EricTrickster
Interesting - I stand corrected. Are there any games out today using this concept/technology that you can think of? I''d like to see them in action.

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Oh, sure, anything with a flexible scriptable particle system. That''s kind of the low end of what I''m thinking of but can be used to represent a whole slew of spells.

One point that seems to be missed is that this could be done for any magic system, not just one in which you say spells or whatnot. What stops your fps projectile code from handling a fireball? One exception is probably building arbitrary geometric constructs though(for like wall and shield spells). I don''t think a lot of people have that. Deformable geometry would be important too if spells are to have a measurable strength and can collapse and stuff. One concept I still love, heard it from Gargoyles, is that energy is energy whether it be magic or technology(physical).

Also, I had in mind that possibly complex or exotic geometric transforms could be used(5-dimensions?), not just stat modifiers, although I don''t know enough about it to say what would be cool, but the point is that it could be done.

Another possibility I''d like to contemplate more is the sci-fi. One could actually make a system which justifies hyperspace, phasers, anti-gravity, force fields, or anything you want. I have forgotten the name of it, but there is a scale of civilizations(Type I, Type II, Type III, ...) whose levels could better be faked via an engineered system rather than the physics we actually know about. Some recent post mentioned throwing stars at your enemies, for instance.

I remember thinking "That''s a lot of work for just one person if I were to do this" when playing Castlevania: Circle of the Moon. There are 10 Attribute Cards and 10 Action Cards(combine one of each). That''s a total of 100 spells! That''s a lot of effects to write. I see game design as system design. I also lack artists. So, whenever I find something that can be done algorithmically I like it.

Hmm... I think it might be best to tackle this backward. From a programming standpoint, are there any really interesting numerical systems that could be used for such a system? I''m no mathematician, but I think there must be some set of equations that would allow the construction of a simple input/output matrix that would reliably and somewhat predictably turn a group of spell words, alchemical components, technological devices, or any combination thereof into a coherent effect. Instead of scripting all the events and their "recipes", just apply the formula and let the math happen on its own. It would be easier to code, occupy less space on the disc, and ultimately yield a more feasible, metaphysically satisfying result.

So, what would work? I know the mendelbrot fractal and the Sierpinski triangle, and I''m not sure I spelled those right. Maybe some element of economic theory, or some bizarre delta rule permutation for neural networks would do the trick. I figure that writing is more fluid than math, so if you can decide on a number of mathematical principles that will form the metaphysical foundation of your world, you can custom-build a pantheon of gods, an astrological order and a social structure that reconciles with your magic algorithm. Could be cool.

Personally I''ve always had a real problem devising such systems. At the code level, they''re awkward to do using traditional game development languages like C/C++, and at the design level, it''s difficult to get the system feeling like you have some real variety, rather than just 150 different permutations of a fireball. I''m not saying it can''t be done, just that it''s hard. I''d be very interested to see more theories or examples on this taken to a practical level.

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quote:

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Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
Hmm... I think it might be best to tackle this backward. From a programming standpoint, are there any really interesting numerical systems that could be used for such a system? I''m no mathematician, but I think there must be some set of equations that would allow the construction of a simple input/output matrix that would reliably and somewhat predictably turn a group of spell words, alchemical components, technological devices, or any combination thereof into a coherent effect. Instead of scripting all the events and their "recipes", just apply the formula and let the math happen on its own. It would be easier to code, occupy less space on the disc, and ultimately yield a more feasible, metaphysically satisfying result.

So, what would work? I know the mendelbrot fractal and the Sierpinski triangle, and I''m not sure I spelled those right. Maybe some element of economic theory, or some bizarre delta rule permutation for neural networks would do the trick. I figure that writing is more fluid than math, so if you can decide on a number of mathematical principles that will form the metaphysical foundation of your world, you can custom-build a pantheon of gods, an astrological order and a social structure that reconciles with your magic algorithm. Could be cool.

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What he said. Nicely put by the way. Can anybody think of more?

@Kylotan
You''re right, I''m scripting it with lua. More programming paradigms than I know how to use.
What''s really going to be fun is when I introduce a whole new magic type the player didn''t even know about, but that''s for later, so much later, sigh.