In relation to MMO''s why do you not see an actual working calendar? Everquest has one, but it has no impact on the game...you can see the ingame date, but there''s no use for it. It doesn''t matter if its jan, aug, or oct...its all the same.. Now im agains adding features to a game if all it does is add realism, but no real changes...If your going to add in calendar effects, make the affect more than just what you see. Example, Seasons. I''ve yet to see a game with real seasons in the world. Its odd, but you never do. I get the feeling that its because that you''d have to create 4 or more unique versions of every zone to accomodate the world...But along with changing scenery you need to change some of the magic effects, some of the mobs, and other such things...this could become difficult, but I would like to see it. Another one, and I definately think this would be easier than creating seasons, is actually phases of the moon. These different phases could affect different creatures (werewolves and other such things) and possibly spells and other rituals.

i don''t think that you''d need four different variations on the same area. all you would need is an automated weather function. the geological features are all the same, it is only the textures that change and objects that change. i would think that all of that could be programmed, rather than modeled & animated. if so, then its all about determining a hierarchy of functions to describe the world at any specific time & place. like some animals only come out at night, so you write a function that generates those animals, only if the time is between 8pm~8am.

likewise, in many places weather patterns are seasonal; snow falls primarily during the winter, when temperatures are colder. then write a precipitation function that checks the temperature and drops rain or snow accordingly. if you want thick snow to develop in the winter simply give it a numerical attribute to describe it''s resistance to...whatever; melting, erosion, etc. then describe a natural value to determine how quickly said snow deteriorates. then determine the difference. if the rate of increment is more than the rate of decrement, then the snow will accumulate. if it is not it will melt.

another function to produce would be one to simulate plant lifecycles. write a function that makes sure that a trees leaves are green and full in the summer, turn brown in autumn, fall off in winter, and grow again in the spring.

quote:

---

Original post by robert4818
Now im agains adding features to a game if all it does is add realism, but no real changes...If your going to add in calendar effects, make the affect more than just what you see.

---

Problem is that your not really meeting your own requirement. You ideas all just add realism. They make the world more real because the seasons have an effect on the game world.

However the far more important issue is what does this add to the game play and what does it take away. In your example you can''t cast certain spells at particular times of the year. That is fine unless I need to cast that spell to solve a quest I am on. Now I have to wait around until the right time of day/year before I can complete my take.

When designing you really need to think long and hard about what problems the idea will cause as well as what benefits it offers. Having time/seasons, which have an effect on the game world, cause lots of problems because the user is required to be in the right place at the right time, otherwise they end up having to stand around waiting. This is the reason real-time was dropped from single player games back in the 80s/90s - it was seldom fun to play.

On top of that you have the issue you already raised. For the feature to feel right it needs to be implemented properly which means planning and implementing changes in the environment for day/night and each season.

Dan Marchant
Obscure Productions
Game Development & Design consultant

If you take time and seasons in to account when designing quests and storylines, then I don''t see there being any major problems like Obscure mentioned.
Sure, sometimes you''d end up not being able to complete a quest because of the time, but there should be enough other quests to keep you occupied. And you can always design in multiple ways to complete quests.

I think varying conditions would add a great deal to gameplay.
For example, if you''re an assasin, you don''t want to be sneaking about in the middle of the day.
Or if you''re trying to sneak through some woods, it''d be better to do it in Summer of Spring so that you''ve got some foliage to hide behind. In winter, with bare trees and plants, it''d be harder to hide (and you''d probably move slower because of the snow)

You could even have some areas that are only accessable during certain times of year/day.
For example, you can cross a river in Winter, because it''s frozen over. But not in Summer, when it''ll just sweep you away.

quote:

---

Original post by Lucidium
If you take time and seasons in to account when designing quests and storylines, then I don''t see there being any major problems like Obscure mentioned........

......You could even have some areas that are only accessable during certain times of year/day.
For example, you can cross a river in Winter, because it''s frozen over. But not in Summer, when it''ll just sweep you away.

---

Which was exactly the source of problems I was talking about.

Then there is the fact that creating season specific missions means more work but still no good reason given as to what this actually adds to the game play. A good idea is one that adds to the enjoyment of the game, so far this just adds to the complexity.



Dan Marchant
Obscure Productions
Game Development & Design consultant

quote:

---

Original post by Obscure

quote:

---

Original post by Lucidium
For example, you can cross a river in Winter, because it''s frozen over. But not in Summer, when it''ll just sweep you away.

---

Which was exactly the source of problems I was talking about.

---

It''d only be a problem if you made walking across the river the ONLY way of getting somewhere. Surely it would just be the easiest way, but if the river isn''t frozen then you''d have to walk around, or find a boat, or something else altogether...
As long as you don''t make a weather/time/date/etc specific action the only way to do something then surely there''s no problem with it, and it would make things a lot more realistic...

you have tunnel vision obscure.. if a game''s content can support the changing of the seasons, then it is obviously more complex than the deadline-riddled wild goose chase that you are imagining. i would much rather play a game that requires me to overcome obstacles rather than meet objectives. as for not being able to cast a certain spell; well, there should be more than one way to skin a cat. can''t cast the spell? find someone who can.

the one major problem that i see with a changes in time is weighing them against changes in location. this is particularily difficult for the changes between night and day, because real-time is not practical for any video game. with time passing at the normal rate, and only during times that the game is being played, it might take a player two or three weeks to complete one game day. nowhere is this more problematic than during travel over large distances, which could end up taking much longer than two to three weeks.

that being said, it is also impractical to have short real-time conversations that take up hours of game time. so you would need some type of scale to determine how quickly time passes at any given moment. in the game i''m working on i''m using a scale based on the number of people within the player''s sphere of awareness. when you are traveling alone or with a small group time will go more quickly than when you are in a city with alot of people to interact with. this way time spent conversing and fighting isn''t wasteful and time spent travelling isn''t tedious.

I mean its one of those things, EQ has a calendar, but whats the point. Besides how is waiting for one season to complete a quest any different than camping a spot for weeks just to get that one random drop you need.

A day in EQ lasts what...72 min (1.2 hours)
That makes a month to be 36 hours
One season (3 months) to be just about 4 1/2 days.
On year is about 2 1/2 weeks.

I know people who camp for items more than that...and your telling me that its too much of an of a hassle. Besides MOST quests won''t rely to heavily on seasons, and some that do might be doable through more than one season.

The point is i''d like to see more done with the calendar...even to the point of perhaps adding in holidays and other special days...
all hallows eve, summer/winter solstice..

etc.

ive got some instances in my magic systems where time can be manipulated; slowed down, sped up or frozen altogether. it''s something that i have on my list, but feel free to use it yourself, as variations on this theme are common. and there are all kinds of ways to enrich the game on account of the passage of time.

and you know what else. i suggest giving obscure a way to opt out of said world. if this is an mmo, then just make that an option, both personally, and on the server. give players the ability to use their players in both servers. that should please all, and couldn''t be that hard. just set everything to the norm, with weather if necessary.

time manipulation spells would be tricky in an MMO game... for example, a spell that sped a character up would give the effect that the entire world is moving slowly (to the person who is sped up). you could just make them move faster, or get more attacks per minute, or something... but that is not realistic since they should also have more (slowed) time to make decisions, and look at things, etc.