Permadeath and Massive PvP
griefers are not just people that like deathmatch-like gameplay. they are people who like deathmatch-like gameplay against people who don''t want to play that way; the thrill for them is ruining someone/everyone else''s fun.
--- krez ([email="krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net"]krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net[/email])
I agree with krez. which is what i''m trying to deal with. I don''t care if you''re a paying customer, but intentionally ruining the game for others isn''t called for. if they want deathmatch, they are probably in the wrong game. When you see a griefer, you know. They are very obvious. In Deathmatch games, they are usually only noticeable when they shoot you and tell you off for no reason. No politeness,
I want to make another thing clear. There is only 1 server. Or at least 1 galaxy. No parallel stuff or different universes. Everyone can meet everyone. There might actually be 2 universes, only if the second is where i want to put all the "on probation" or banned users. Let them share the world with their own kind.
Note: I just talked with someone who is a griefer. It might actually be a good idea to design part of the game for griefers.... give them something to do or distract them and they might leave the rest of the people alone. If I say designate areas for free4all or have little deathmatch rings.
I want to make another thing clear. There is only 1 server. Or at least 1 galaxy. No parallel stuff or different universes. Everyone can meet everyone. There might actually be 2 universes, only if the second is where i want to put all the "on probation" or banned users. Let them share the world with their own kind.
Note: I just talked with someone who is a griefer. It might actually be a good idea to design part of the game for griefers.... give them something to do or distract them and they might leave the rest of the people alone. If I say designate areas for free4all or have little deathmatch rings.
iKonquest.com - Web-based strategy.End of Line
What if the number of allowed permadeaths was an account option?
For $X a month you can have up to five permadeaths a month.. for $2X you get 10. Die too often, you have to wait (or perhaps pay a small fee per extra life?).
Of course, the model doesn''t quite work for griefers. They, of course, want unlimited deaths. Maybe that''s something you ask at signup (and that you can change once a month). If you choose the "griefer" model, you can die as often as you want, but this way there''s something in the system that knows what type of player you are. One can then use that to "soften" the deaths of the regular players in some way.
For example, maybe griefers can''t permakill other players. The death could be a more minor setback. You''d have to work it in with the reality of the game, of course.
I like the idea of certain areas being flagged as deathmatch areas, too. Maybe normal players who enter these get some sort of incentive (in-game or financial) for entering. This way the griefers can just hang in those places, and both sides are (relatively) happy.
For $X a month you can have up to five permadeaths a month.. for $2X you get 10. Die too often, you have to wait (or perhaps pay a small fee per extra life?).
Of course, the model doesn''t quite work for griefers. They, of course, want unlimited deaths. Maybe that''s something you ask at signup (and that you can change once a month). If you choose the "griefer" model, you can die as often as you want, but this way there''s something in the system that knows what type of player you are. One can then use that to "soften" the deaths of the regular players in some way.
For example, maybe griefers can''t permakill other players. The death could be a more minor setback. You''d have to work it in with the reality of the game, of course.
I like the idea of certain areas being flagged as deathmatch areas, too. Maybe normal players who enter these get some sort of incentive (in-game or financial) for entering. This way the griefers can just hang in those places, and both sides are (relatively) happy.
Ok, you asked for it. (You obviously don''t know how long I can go on about something. )
First off, this MUD is different from most because it''s focused on RP and gives you more to do than just killing stuff. So death happens mainly from being stupid enough to try something you can''t do, or political assassinations. Death is definitely *not* the focus of the game, it''s just something that happens now and then.
Also, the skill system is coded in such a way that skilled chars are much much better than newbies. A newbie can walk in and try to kill a good fighter and make absolutely no dent in him, whereas the skilled char can kill the newbie in 1 shot if he so chooses. However, it takes long enough to get that skilled that the griefers get turned off before they ever get that good. Generally when a griefer *does* show up, he treats everyone like crap to the point that players get pissed and kill him before he can do too much harm.
Death itself I consider to be more realistic here than in most other places. If you die, your body starts to rot, and if you aren''t rescued by a healer in time, your body poofs and you permadie. (You have the option to send a "deathtell" to ask someone to rescue you, however this will make you lose some skills.) However, you can purchase an amulet for a large amount of money and ensure that when you die, your soul goes into the amulet and you lose no skills...however you can''t send deathtells. If you''re in an amulet, you can have a healer put you in a different body if you so desire, or if your original body rotted away or got butchered.
Another note which I think probably increases the successful implementation of permadeath is that all organizations are player-run. No one *has* to belong to a guild, they only join it if they have the right skills and their ideals agree with the guild''s ideals. For instance, you can learn healing spells and use them outside of a guild, but if you want to be all goody goody you can join the healer''s guild. Castles work the same way, except they try to perform pretty much all functions, and they''re involved in political stuff.
So generally, players are used to dealing with griefers and assorted other idiots themselves, since they run everything else. The problem with a game such as this is that you get another type of idiot, known as an ooc cheater, who shares info about game stuff with his friends, such as who killed him. To make things even more complicated, experienced players are allowed to have 2 chars at any given time, which although it increases the likelyhood of cheating, gives people a chance to try something different without having to give up their favorite char. It also means if one of their chars dies, they''re not as torn up about it because they can just play their other one.
What all this produces is players who know the gameworld well enough that they can have char after char that lives for years, and players who never quite figure it out and die every few weeks or months without really ever having made much impact. (And of course the idiot newbies who log on and attack some skilled char and get killed for their trouble and cuss out the mud and its players. Those are rarer than you might think, though.)
Hope this is useful to you, there''s much much more but this post is long enough now. If you wanna see this MUD for yourself ask me, I don''t wanna just post the addy and have everyone bitch at me for advertising heh.
If a squirrel is chasing you, drop your nuts and run.
First off, this MUD is different from most because it''s focused on RP and gives you more to do than just killing stuff. So death happens mainly from being stupid enough to try something you can''t do, or political assassinations. Death is definitely *not* the focus of the game, it''s just something that happens now and then.
Also, the skill system is coded in such a way that skilled chars are much much better than newbies. A newbie can walk in and try to kill a good fighter and make absolutely no dent in him, whereas the skilled char can kill the newbie in 1 shot if he so chooses. However, it takes long enough to get that skilled that the griefers get turned off before they ever get that good. Generally when a griefer *does* show up, he treats everyone like crap to the point that players get pissed and kill him before he can do too much harm.
Death itself I consider to be more realistic here than in most other places. If you die, your body starts to rot, and if you aren''t rescued by a healer in time, your body poofs and you permadie. (You have the option to send a "deathtell" to ask someone to rescue you, however this will make you lose some skills.) However, you can purchase an amulet for a large amount of money and ensure that when you die, your soul goes into the amulet and you lose no skills...however you can''t send deathtells. If you''re in an amulet, you can have a healer put you in a different body if you so desire, or if your original body rotted away or got butchered.
Another note which I think probably increases the successful implementation of permadeath is that all organizations are player-run. No one *has* to belong to a guild, they only join it if they have the right skills and their ideals agree with the guild''s ideals. For instance, you can learn healing spells and use them outside of a guild, but if you want to be all goody goody you can join the healer''s guild. Castles work the same way, except they try to perform pretty much all functions, and they''re involved in political stuff.
So generally, players are used to dealing with griefers and assorted other idiots themselves, since they run everything else. The problem with a game such as this is that you get another type of idiot, known as an ooc cheater, who shares info about game stuff with his friends, such as who killed him. To make things even more complicated, experienced players are allowed to have 2 chars at any given time, which although it increases the likelyhood of cheating, gives people a chance to try something different without having to give up their favorite char. It also means if one of their chars dies, they''re not as torn up about it because they can just play their other one.
What all this produces is players who know the gameworld well enough that they can have char after char that lives for years, and players who never quite figure it out and die every few weeks or months without really ever having made much impact. (And of course the idiot newbies who log on and attack some skilled char and get killed for their trouble and cuss out the mud and its players. Those are rarer than you might think, though.)
Hope this is useful to you, there''s much much more but this post is long enough now. If you wanna see this MUD for yourself ask me, I don''t wanna just post the addy and have everyone bitch at me for advertising heh.
If a squirrel is chasing you, drop your nuts and run.
If a squirrel is chasing you, drop your nuts and run.
could you explain ooc cheating a little more?
i think as far as griefers go, I can distract a lot of them by giving them something to do in the game or the ability to be themselves and be accepted if they stay in a dedicated part of the game. As for the rest, i think they can pretty much be handled. There might be a few though that cause too much of a nuisance and I might have to intervene.
I''d give the army a much bigger advantage over any regular player. But they have to responsibility to maintain the peace between the regular users. So they''d take care of them. The only problem i can think of is what if a griefer tries to be part of the army, and uses the power to attack others? They''d get kicked out but they could always start another character and do it again.
i think as far as griefers go, I can distract a lot of them by giving them something to do in the game or the ability to be themselves and be accepted if they stay in a dedicated part of the game. As for the rest, i think they can pretty much be handled. There might be a few though that cause too much of a nuisance and I might have to intervene.
I''d give the army a much bigger advantage over any regular player. But they have to responsibility to maintain the peace between the regular users. So they''d take care of them. The only problem i can think of is what if a griefer tries to be part of the army, and uses the power to attack others? They''d get kicked out but they could always start another character and do it again.
iKonquest.com - Web-based strategy.End of Line
OOC cheater == someone who uses out-of-game means to share information about in-game stuff. i.e. someone who posts a website about all the combinations of runes for magic spells (that players were supposed to learn by trial-and-error), or where the secret hideout for some group is (by creating a character, joining the group, and then using the secret information with the old character, or telling others)... that type of thing.
--- krez ([email="krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net"]krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net[/email])
ok, i haven''t read most of this, so i''ll start here...
i''ve had these ideas before, and afterward i can''t imagine not having them. however, the concept of permadeath didn''t even enter into my decision. because even from a tradional multiplayer pov there needs to be a clear idea of what happens when a player''s character dies.
my specific thoughts were related to a game that i had concieved as a rtsrpg, but the design would easily lend itself to an mmo, so these ideas would apply just the same.
as for the methods of gaining experience, i had two thoughts that apply. the first was that if you were to have to start over, there should still be a reasonable period where you are "catching up" to your past levels. and the length of that period should relfect two things: your past levels, and how long it took you to gain them. some players become attached to certain characters, and if those characters die then another character usually takes their place. thus it is best to get the players back into their preferred roles quickly, but not too quickly; you want to give them time to progress along a different path.
one solution to this is that xperience should be gained not through repetition but through competency and efficiency. the only attribute that really relies on repetition is strength, and even strength can be weighted to increase or decrease progress as needed. if you were efficient in your past life, then you shall progress more quickly in this one.
however, some players are better than others, and some take much longer to reach a preferred state. these players wouldn''t progress as quickly with increments based on efficiency. thus they must have their grades weighted in some way.
another thought was that sometimes a player will not necessarily want to rush to return to his previous state. and there must be some way to measure that drive, whether an attribute that evaluates performance or an option that can be set.
quote: Original post by trapdoor
What do you think?
i''ve had these ideas before, and afterward i can''t imagine not having them. however, the concept of permadeath didn''t even enter into my decision. because even from a tradional multiplayer pov there needs to be a clear idea of what happens when a player''s character dies.
my specific thoughts were related to a game that i had concieved as a rtsrpg, but the design would easily lend itself to an mmo, so these ideas would apply just the same.
as for the methods of gaining experience, i had two thoughts that apply. the first was that if you were to have to start over, there should still be a reasonable period where you are "catching up" to your past levels. and the length of that period should relfect two things: your past levels, and how long it took you to gain them. some players become attached to certain characters, and if those characters die then another character usually takes their place. thus it is best to get the players back into their preferred roles quickly, but not too quickly; you want to give them time to progress along a different path.
one solution to this is that xperience should be gained not through repetition but through competency and efficiency. the only attribute that really relies on repetition is strength, and even strength can be weighted to increase or decrease progress as needed. if you were efficient in your past life, then you shall progress more quickly in this one.
however, some players are better than others, and some take much longer to reach a preferred state. these players wouldn''t progress as quickly with increments based on efficiency. thus they must have their grades weighted in some way.
another thought was that sometimes a player will not necessarily want to rush to return to his previous state. and there must be some way to measure that drive, whether an attribute that evaluates performance or an option that can be set.
ill find me a soapbox where i can shout it
Well, ooc cheating goes a little farther than that on a RP mud. Telling your friends who killed you, or telling your friends who your new char is and getting them to teach you, or figuring out who your old enemies are playing now and killing them with no IC excuse, etc. Recently a lot of players were deleted for going even farther than the usual...they''d managed to acquire some of the game code and posted it on a website, along with assorted info about who they needed to kill to rule the world.
I think rather than trying to make the griefers happy, you should do as much as you can to make the game as boring to them as possible, so that they''ll only screw it up with a couple of chars at most before they get sick of it and go on to torture someone else. Of course with a pay game there''s a bit different philosophy, but then again would the kind of players you WANT to pay for it play there if they knew they were likely to run into griefers who thought of it as a nice place to have fun?
I dunno, my ideas are decidedly nontraditional on this front, so no one probably even has a clue where I''m coming from. Everyone else is happy just killing crap for xp and worried about losing all their skills if their chars permadie. So if that''s the kinda stuff you want, I don''t see any reason to have permadeath, just make it be an unrealistic EQ clone or something.
If a squirrel is chasing you, drop your nuts and run.
I think rather than trying to make the griefers happy, you should do as much as you can to make the game as boring to them as possible, so that they''ll only screw it up with a couple of chars at most before they get sick of it and go on to torture someone else. Of course with a pay game there''s a bit different philosophy, but then again would the kind of players you WANT to pay for it play there if they knew they were likely to run into griefers who thought of it as a nice place to have fun?
I dunno, my ideas are decidedly nontraditional on this front, so no one probably even has a clue where I''m coming from. Everyone else is happy just killing crap for xp and worried about losing all their skills if their chars permadie. So if that''s the kinda stuff you want, I don''t see any reason to have permadeath, just make it be an unrealistic EQ clone or something.
If a squirrel is chasing you, drop your nuts and run.
If a squirrel is chasing you, drop your nuts and run.
I don''t think i''ll worry too much about OOC cheating. Main reason is that it''s a futuristic MMO. Their character could have communicated otherwise. I think one thing i might do for names is this:
First name | non unique. Whatever the player wants.
Last name | unique. Fixed to the master account (unlimited character accounts: with only either 1-3 active at a time... but unlimited dead characters) This means once they pick a last name... all new characters will have the last name and be identifyable.
Clan name. | something to easily add your clan name to your name without touching the other 2 names.
---
I''m not sure how easy it would be to track those who try and make 2 master accounts. Otherwise is they use the same account and 2 dif characters, they''d know cause of the last name.
As far as griefers go. I think I need to split them up into the kind of griefer they are. There''s those who taunt others and try and kill them, there''s others who just kill those who might have something of value. But there might be more than just one kind of griefer. The guy I talked to was one who killed people if they had something of value.... putting them into the criminal category. They wouldn''t just kill anyone or they wouldn''t hang out in newbie areas and kill them for fun.
First name | non unique. Whatever the player wants.
Last name | unique. Fixed to the master account (unlimited character accounts: with only either 1-3 active at a time... but unlimited dead characters) This means once they pick a last name... all new characters will have the last name and be identifyable.
Clan name. | something to easily add your clan name to your name without touching the other 2 names.
---
I''m not sure how easy it would be to track those who try and make 2 master accounts. Otherwise is they use the same account and 2 dif characters, they''d know cause of the last name.
As far as griefers go. I think I need to split them up into the kind of griefer they are. There''s those who taunt others and try and kill them, there''s others who just kill those who might have something of value. But there might be more than just one kind of griefer. The guy I talked to was one who killed people if they had something of value.... putting them into the criminal category. They wouldn''t just kill anyone or they wouldn''t hang out in newbie areas and kill them for fun.
iKonquest.com - Web-based strategy.End of Line
i wouldn''t even consider someone a greifer if they kill people to loot them of their valuable items. they are a criminal, no doubt, but if you allow for that in your game they are not a greifer. if you do not want people to do that, make it so you can''t loot corpses. otherwise mark them as "criminal", and let the police/guards/bounty-hunters handle them. part of life is trying not to get killed by someone who wants your stuff.
--- krez ([email="krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net"]krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net[/email])
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