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space travel

Started by July 17, 2003 11:37 PM
62 comments, last by RolandofGilead 21 years, 5 months ago
quote:
If your refering to the Star Trek warp speed then your slightly mistaken. Warp engines in Star Trek surrond the ship in a warp bubble that bends the laws of time and space for everything inside to travel faster then the speed of light without suffering the effects of releitivity. Its also based on a logrithmic scale with 0 be full stop and 10 being infinite velocity.


ST "warp speed" has some vaguely scientific rhetoric for it, but the problem with it isn''t that it''s scientific, it''s that it doesn''t seem plausible . If you read Clarke, Niven, Heinlein, or any other SF author that puts effort into hard SF, and then take a look at that sort of thing, it just doesn''t seem to fit. It''s understandable - it''s aimed at the masses more than "real" SF readers - but what seems to be a large percentage of those SF readers are also gamers. I find it pretty irritating when a game (or book, or movie, etc) trots out gee-whiz gadgets that simply show a blatant disregard for the laws of nature.
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The problem with the "laws of nature" as you call them is that they are not laws they are theorys that for that have supporting evidene but no proof. The theory that nothing can travel faster the light is still only theory it has never been tested and are current technology doesn''t allow us to test that theory. There is evidence to support this theory but until it can controlled repeatable test proves that nothing can travel faster then light it still only a theory.

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Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
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Exactly. They have evidence supporting them, but there isn''t evidence supporting FTL, due to that whole "general relativity" equation (yes, yes, I know it doesn''t include either the uncertainty principle or any facet of quantum mechanics, as neither had been invented at the time, but they do not necessarily apply). When there''s a good deal of evidence in favor of something...and nil in favor of another...which do you believe? I wonder.
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What about "Planet of the Apes"?

A game like that would be interesting - make some changes/mess with the culture then come back in 10 thousand years and see where it got them.
quote: Original post by Edward Ropple
ST "warp speed" has some vaguely scientific rhetoric for it, but the problem with it isn''t that it''s scientific, it''s that it doesn''t seem plausible . If you read Clarke, Niven, Heinlein, or any other SF author that puts effort into hard SF, and then take a look at that sort of thing, it just doesn''t seem to fit. It''s understandable - it''s aimed at the masses more than "real" SF readers - but what seems to be a large percentage of those SF readers are also gamers. I find it pretty irritating when a game (or book, or movie, etc) trots out gee-whiz gadgets that simply show a blatant disregard for the laws of nature.


"But the abolition -- or merely the reduction -- of inertia is quite another matter, and may be completely impossible. But it''s a nice thought.... Frankly, I don''t know how ''Star City'' could manage without it..."

"One of the assumptions I have made in this novel is that Einstein is correct, and that no signal -- or object -- can exceed the speed of light. A number of highly mathematical papers have recently appeared suggesting that, as countless science-fiction writers have taken for granted, galactic hitchhikers may not have to suffer this annoying restriction.

On the whole, I hope they are right -- but there seems one fundamental objection. If FLT is possible, where are all those hitchhikers -- or at least the well-heeled tourists?

One answer is that no sensible ETs will ever build interstellar vehicles, for precisely the same reason that we have never developed coal-fueled airships: there are better ways of doing the job.
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My suggestion that a Star Trek transporter would still be unavailable in 3001 may therefore appear ludicrously shortsighted a mere century from now, and the present lack of interstellar tourists is simply due to the fact that no receiving equipment has yet been set up on Earth. Perhaps it''s already on its way by slow boat..."

both (lengthy) quotes are from the "Sources and Acknowledgements" section at the end of "3001: The Final Odyssey". The ellipses at the very end of each quote are Clarke''s, the rest representing omissions on my part. The italics on Star Trek are Clarke''s as well, but are not intended as emphasis.

Why did I quote this? First, it shows that Arthur C Clarke has included ideas that are likely impossible according to modern physics (reduction of inertia) because it made the story work (Star City needs it to function). Second, it shows that he doesn''t find the idea of FLT travel implausible, just perhaps less practical than other means.
I think it is rather ironic that some people cling so tightly to Einstein and relativity when the very existence of the theory of relativity shows that our rock-hard scientific laws can be shattered by the next great innovator. Newton''s system was held as the ultimate authority on reality until Einstein came along, yet we still have not learned our lesson -- we must now hold Einstein''s system as the ultimate authority, and discount the possibility (however remote) that someday another genius will come along and render relativity entirely obsolete.

Wielder of the Sacred Wands
[Work - ArenaNet] [Epoch Language] [Scribblings]

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Whoever said newton or einstiens theories where the ultimate authority on reality. There are many theories built on newtonian physics and many famous physicists that came after him. Einstiens theories where built upon those theories just like all science.

The only large disagreement in modern physicis is between einstien based physics and quantum physics which have a few basic principles in common but for the most part are mutually exclusive.

-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document

quote: Original post by TechnoGoth
The only large disagreement in modern physicis is between einstien based physics and quantum physics which have a few basic principles in common but for the most part are mutually exclusive.


Some things, on a similar note, that I find interesting

- The theory of relativity is used to explain things on an astronomical scale while quantum physics is used to explain things on an atomic scale, but trying to do it the other way around doesn''t work very well.

- To my eye, relativity seems to focus mostly on "things as particles" while quantum physics seems to focus mostly on "things as waves". One of the great problems with classical physics was that they couldn''t reconcile kinematics and thermodynamics with EM radiation. This split, to me, seems very similar to the split between relativity and quantum physics.
I only meant that Newton/Einstein are the "big names" that most people are aware of. I know very well that there were dozens of theories, but Newton and Einstein had the best.

However, it is discrepancies like quantum physics vs. relativity that lead me to believe that we still haven''t figured it out. I suspect that some day we will find a completely different model which will erase these problems -- the G.U.T. I firmly believe that reality is orderly and can be described by a single paradigm, without the need for all this shifting between models and theories.

We may never find it, but I believe it is out there.

Wielder of the Sacred Wands
[Work - ArenaNet] [Epoch Language] [Scribblings]

quote: Original post by Way Walker
both (lengthy) quotes are from the "Sources and Acknowledgements" section at the end of "3001: The Final Odyssey". The ellipses at the very end of each quote are Clarke''s, the rest representing omissions on my part. The italics on Star Trek are Clarke''s as well, but are not intended as emphasis.

Why did I quote this? First, it shows that Arthur C Clarke has included ideas that are likely impossible according to modern physics (reduction of inertia) because it made the story work (Star City needs it to function). Second, it shows that he doesn''t find the idea of FLT travel implausible, just perhaps less practical than other means.


Hm. That slipped my mind when I mentioned him. I read 3001 a pretty long time ago. I probably should again.

It might strike you as if I don''t think FTL is possible, and that''s true. Things that are very similar to FTL (hyperspace) may be possible, but if you stipulate FTL as possible, then you open up a can of worms that answers can''t be given for. Why doesn''t time dilation screw up your time tracks when you pass c? How can you get the energy to pass c in the first place (assuming that general relativity does exist, and if it doesn''t you''d have some really hefty problems to negotiate)? And so on.
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