Number 6 is something that I did in an RPG I worked on a long time ago. It was sort of a thing that wove itself through the entire game. I turned out really well. I could see that working well as kind of a long-term quest in an MMORPG.

-- Steve --
Blue Fang Games

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Original post by TechnoHydra
I see what youre talking about and it would be nice to have but theres a problem with these one-time-only quests in MMORPGs. One a one or a few at most can do it. You can''t have every single person saving the world from the exact same fate over and over again, it gets old and becomes like every other quest out there. You end up having a really big quest the beta testers solve and thats not available to new players. So you have to make new unique quests for all these new unique players and that means LOTS and LOTS of content creation, implementation, and everyone spends all their time downloading new patches and never get a chance to play.

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I understand what your saying...but I guess I didn''t exactly clear that up...quest like the one presented are actually not a one-time-only quest per player...say like Epic quests in DAOC, or Everquest, but are actually one-time-only per playerbase quests. These are large quests in the game that when completed aren''t actually rewarding to the player who completed it, but to the playerbase as a whole.

Completeing a quest to change the world isn''t something that someone would idly do on thier off time, but would take a dedicated person to complete. Sort of like real life.

I have wrestled with this same beast – some time ago. What it boils down to is that there are only a few types of quest:
1) Go get me this and bring it to me or Go get this and take it to someone
2) Take this and take it to someone
3) Go find this person

I’m sure if you really think about it you could come up with a few variations of these quests... I’m not suggesting that there are no variations but they simply all derive from these types.

It doesn’t bother me so much that there aren’t many variations of quest – what bothers me the most is that in MMORPGs the quest that you were given is the same quest that I will be given is the same quest that the next guy will be given. As a matter of fact, when someone has already completed a quest, there really isn’t any discovery for anyone else.

So, more than finding more types of quest in MMOs – I think the goal should be how to hand out quest to players that are pseudo unique . Pseudo unique quest could be built dynamically as a quest is needed by an NPC. For example, let’s say a player walks up to an NPC and through some interaction triggers the NPC to give him a quest, say the NPC is a merchant and the player is looking for feathers and the NPC does not have any feathers in his inventory. So, the NPC request a quest based on the need for this item. In this case the NPC will give a quest that requires him to bring the NPC some feathers. This could be as simple as the name of an NPC that has feathers or maybe as vague as the NPC saying “I hear there are many birds to the east.”

Anyway, I’m sure that you could build on this idea... as I can’t legally say any more than what I have





Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

You forgot the variations of Use Item X at place Y. Or learn Spell A to cast on object B.

On another note, I''d like to see some non-linear quests, quests where you have to make choices.

Example, you are hired to sneak into a wizards castle to kill him. First you have to find a way into the tower. Kill the guards and go in the front door, or climb the wall to the top and work your way down, bribe a guard to get access, etc. Then you either fight your way through the guards and mobs to get to the wizard, or you sneak in to kill him. If you fought the wizard is indignant that one would be so bold as to shed so much of his henchman''s blood in his castle and you must kill him. If you stealth your way through and get to him without drawing any aggro, you find out that the wizard has been watching you and is thuroughly impressed, he offers you a job.....

i believe there are more types of quests possible than those two or three that everyone is discussing. perhaps not in current MMORPGs, but this is the game design forum so let''s pretend that the game is more than running around killing stuff and collecting items. how about:

* escort me to place X: the player must travel with the quest-giver until they reach the destination. it is the player''s duty to prevent harm to the quest-giver, whether through scouting the path and avoiding trouble, slaughtering everything that poses a threat, or hiring more help for a share of the quest reward.

* prevent person X from doing Y: person X is going to do Y. the player must stop them in some way. person X can be killed, persuaded, or item Z (which is required to do action Y) can be stolen or broken.

* get information: similar to the "get item X" quest, but information is the goal rather than a tangible item. the player can eavesdrop on someone who has the information, or persuade them, or steal a written copy.

* bring person X back to me: the player must locate and return person X. person X can be persuaded, knocked unconscious and carried, teleported, or tricked.

* get rid of item X: a la Lord of the Rings (only smaller scale, unless you have a LOT of time to program).

* get item X from person Y without raising suspicion: person Y will be angry and vengeful if he finds out the quest-giver had his item X stolen. it can be replaced with a replica, person Y can be made to forget about it (hypnosis? a spell? it depends on the game world), person Y can be killed, or they can be made to give up item X of their own volition.

* protect person/place X from Y: Y is/are invading with the intent of killing person X/pillaging place X. the player must stop them.

those are just random examples i made up now, so there might be overlap if you try to break things down. but, i believe that with several templates, random quests can be generated. i like SoaringTortoise''s "desire" idea; if the NPCs have desires (i want this item, i want my friend safe, i need this information, i want my runaway daughter back) the AI could fill out the most appropriate template quite easily.

just my 2 cents...

Yes, those are most definitely quest that could be included in an MMO*. In fact the first that you mention is a type of quest (well, it’s not really a quest per se) that is available in UO. But, they are still just variations of the quest that I mention... that’s not necessarily a bad thing – I just feel that quest in MMO*s should be unique to the player.

In CRPGs the quest are unique to the player simply because the player is the only other non-NPC in the game. Of course, if Joey is playing a CRPG and his best friend is playing the same game they can share information with one another as to how to complete a specific quest – but that is their decision to make.

In an MMO* players can easily share information regarding quest. Here’s an example: My good friend Derek and I was playing DaoC and I had started playing the game two days after he had started. So, Derek had completed two or three of the quest and instead of me completing the quest on my own Derek showed me what to do (granted it was a choice that I made).

This is the event that really started me down this path of hating quests that are canned.

As I have stated, I don’t think that the type of quests available in game is the issue. The issue is that the quests are relatively meaningless. They do very little to suspend my disbelief – above being fun, the suspension of disbelief is one of the things that I think games should strive to do. So, when I go get X from Y and bring it back to Z... there better have been a reason for me risking my virtual life to do so. In all of the quest, in every MMO* on the market... quests are meaningless. They have zero impact on anything that is happening or going to happen in the world.

The goal should be to tie the quest generation to something in the game that queues up quest; not for specific players but for specific purposes. If an NPC merchant is out of a good then he has a need. This need would be noted by the system and a pseudo unique quest generated for the NPC merchant to give out. These quest could be flagged as unique, meaning that the first person to accept the quest is the only to be on this quest or maybe flagged for multiple recipients of the quest.

The key, IMHO, is to tie the quest to something that alters the game in some way. In my above example when the player brings X back to the merchant the merchant now has this good and can sell it – maybe he is the only NPC in the town to have this good and he sells it at an astronomical price. Or, maybe he is the second NPC to have this good and he lowers his price – underselling the other NPC merchant starting a price war between the two NPCs. That is just a simple example of the player, performing a quest that is dynamically generated and it impacts and effects to game world.


Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

so the real problem is not that quests follow just a few templates, but rather that they are pointless other than to complete a quest and get a reward.

i think this can be solved by dynamically generating the quests based on the world and its inhabitants (like the merchant example above). to do it right, the NPCs just have to track their own goals, and hand out quests if it will further the goals/desires. including factions/guilds, religions, nations, and an overall storyline could give these NPCs more goals than just their desire for an amulet or the need to get supplies to sell in the market. for example, say two factions are fighting for control of some town. automatically (if the system is set up nicely) any members of either faction will be able to generate several quests, based on their goal of furthering thier faction''s needs. a merchant might normally want someone to run and get him some supplies to sell, but a faction merchant might also want someone to fetch a certain item to help the cause (he knows about this item due to his trading), or destroy the reputation of another merchant from the other faction (it would further two of his goals then), or warn the guild leader of some news he overheard but cannot deliver himself.

that''d be neat. i think.

Yes, krez, I think you''ve got it

A system, such as this, would need to be integrated and planned for inclussion from the first design - otherwise, I think it would fail.

I''m out of the MMO* business now but I still have a desire to implement a system such as this sometime in the future

Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

How about this (applies to mmorpg's):

Give players the possibility to "order" itens at merchants (the merchants are NPC's) and let the merchant have items he needs. Whenever a PC requests an item the merchant doesn't have (and it's somewhat special) the merchant adds it to his wish list. Other players can then sell this object to the merchant and the player requesting an item can then buy it.

This would require the player that needs an item to be patient and check back often. The merchant should also forget about items if they're "long ago" (requested long ago, never bought etc).

This particular quest would have the player influence the world. However I think it can easily be disrupted by for example higher level players dumping their old items at merchants and that kind of problems.

Another way for dynamic missions could be to create some mission tree...:
A player gets ordered to cast spell A on object B.
He can not cast spell A. He has to learn it from person C, who wants something in return. (this something could be attained thru another sub quest ...). Finding object B is another story... it involves entering structure D by getting person E to help you by doing F for him/her.

A lisp-like notation may clarify this:

(cast  (learn_spell    A      (find        (earn          C          something        )      )    )   (enter_place    D    (do_something_for F)  ))  

Hope I'm making sense...

EDIT:
Of course, giving players the power to influence other players could be to have the one player's objectives interfere with another's. For example: One player needs help from one NPC while another player for some reason needs to assasinate that NPC. Another example: two Players both need to steal an item from the same NPC, while the NPC only has one of it.

It would probably be a bitch to implement with a lot of players crawling aroud at the same place... it may be a good idea to put objectives far apart then, so a lot can happen in between two objectives. Also, there should be the possibility of reaching one objective multiple ways. For example it might be possible to learn a spell from the old man at the deserted mountain top, but digging through some books at the city library might provide the player with an alternative way of learning the spell...

And now I need to get some sleep...

[edited by - Kurioes on June 4, 2003 7:41:58 PM]