i''ve tried developing some level for quake, half-life and serious sam, but all the editors seem to have no intelligence of what constitutes a valid playable level. What do you people think do level editors need to become more user friendly? Maybe even speed up the building of the structure, more than gameplay, of a level?

how much did you pay for that level editor?

It''s almost a given with 3d that it''s going to take a while to build your level no matter how you go about it. It''s simply not as easy as working with 2d tiles or hexes. A better comparison would be to a modelling program. I still can''t get into those, even though I can do simple maps in Q1-3/HL/SS. It''s just a long learning curve to start to enjoy working with polys no matter how you go about it.

The only suggestion I have for future editors to really improve this learning curve is to include an option to base your 3d structures from an abstracted 2d tile system that uses small pieces of 3d structures(like the one in NWN for example) and then convert the tiles into well-optimized brushes that can be simply dropped in, scaled rotated etc. like a prefab, containing all the basic structure and greatly easing the whole process. Including options to distort the original tiles along a heightmap to create ramps etc., layer tiles in combinations, and use full 3d blocks ala the old Tomb Raider games instead of piecing together only tiles would be big bonuses to such a package, though not quite so necessary.

I guess a program working outside existing editors could be made to do that right now, but an integrated one would be more popular, of course.

Beyond structure creation, putting in the gameplay objects always seems to be a hassle for anything except DM, but I think that''s to be expected with any reasonably complex FPS.

what if, your level editor could build the level for you from, for examples and set of 2d blue prints? Or from parameters that the user gives it. I once came across a random level generator for doom called slige. wouldn''t it be cool (and helpful) if the editor could create a building for you which you can edit? a random terrain which you can populate? then you can incorpaorate both the parts in your level/s.

Actually, there were many tools released for ID Software''s Doom (the original) that could create maps from "blueprints" as you suggest. Maps could be generated from 2D maps with height values. It worked pretty well; but part of the problem with that method is that today''s levels are often so complex, viewing a map from above is 100% unintelligible.

As a matter of fact, most modern 3D level editors have the same problem. Its very difficult to work with complex levels because the more objects the it incorporates, the more the 2D views (where the actual work is done) become messy.. chaotic even. Of course you can hide other parts of the map, but that just adds one more thing to keep track of during development.

The other part of the problem of course is that there are no mainstream tools yet that can intelligently break the level down into polygons. But I think that such a tool would be entirely possible for a talented developer to build.

So I''d really like to see tools like those that were used with the original Doom, where levels can be built from 2D blueprints with heightmaps -- and it would be great if it could include a filter for heightmap values. For example, you could select filters that will show you all areas of the map where the heightmap value is between 50 and 60.

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Brian Lacy
ForeverDream Studios

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brian@foreverdreamstudios.com

"I create. Therefore I am."

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Original post by irbrian

The other part of the problem of course is that there are no mainstream tools yet that can intelligently break the level down into polygons. But I think that such a tool would be entirely possible for a talented developer to build.

So I''d really like to see tools like those that were used with the original Doom, where levels can be built from 2D blueprints with heightmaps -- and it would be great if it could include a filter for heightmap values. For example, you could select filters that will show you all areas of the map where the heightmap value is between 50 and 60.

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can u please explain further, its ineresting but haven''t grasped well the concept of breaking levels into polys and filters for height maps

If you''d like an example of a user friendly editor than take a look at the Neverwinter Nights Aurora Toolset. Its quite easy to set up a level with it. And if you know a programming language, then picking up the scripting system is a snap.

Also check out The Elder Scrolls Construction Set for Morrowind. Its possibly the best editor I have ever used. You can sculpt the terrain very easily (Its just a highmap with a texture applied). Everything else is a 3D object that you place in the world.

Take a look at the following examples:





It only took me about an hour to produce that tower. Its made up of a few dozen seperate pieces stuck together. The editor doesn''t care how you place an object. Most of the pieces of the tower overlap quite a bit. It took me about two hours to create all of the interiors with items and furniture placed and only another two hours to script everything, including a rather large quest.

I know what you mean about Quake and Halflife. I find making levels for those games rather clunky and unintuitive.

The problem with the aurora tool-kit is that levels although in 3d are flat, even if you do have different levels they must be totally independent. Far from what a game like quake 3 would need.

I''ve read an article about how Climax Studios use prefabricated lego-like structures to create building from the outside. How easy would it be to translate it to the internals as well?

What kind of prefabs, do you think they use? since for examples jus a wall would be to basic but a ''gothic room'' would be to restrictive